I'd like to start by saying im not fully committed to rolling need or greeding, but you are specifically asking for "the argument FPR "need BOE for AH"", so here it is.
Gold matters. Gold matters a lot. As a leveling warrior, I may not have many of my tanking abilities, I may not have a tanking set and I may not have a mount... A BoE item presents an opportunity for me to get gold to invest in an equal piece of gear OR something even more impactful like an ability I dont have access to or my mount. A group of random strangers will never be able to objectively determine who NEEDS an item the most. Due to the fact that gold is SO important in vanilla, a valuable BoE item is worth far more than its stats for any one individual.
Ninjaing. Just because someone can use an item, doesnt mean that they will. "Oh, but that will ruin their reputation..." Will it? Im a rogue with daggers in your group. Krol Blade drops. I roll need. You ask me to equip, I say "I fully intend to, I just havent trained swords". After I have left, you will never be able to prove I havent equipped it. I can always extend the lie by saying it is in my bank the next time we meet... Etc etc etc... Blizz already said they wont be resolving loot conflicts, everyone needing is a surefire way that no BoE can be ninja'd. A lot of players will risk staining their reputation for exceptional items...
Players are incentivized to need on items that they would prefer to sell so that they have guaranteed gain. People are inherently self interested... Lets assume I am in a group of 5 people. Im a good guy, I wont ninja, but Im still worried about #1. A Krol Blade drops. I would prefer to win the roll legitimately on a greed so I can sell it, but I dont completely trust the group AND I only have a 20% chance of winning... While the Krol Blade is a minor upgrade for me, I would still be incentivized to take the 100% chance of needing and equipping the item for a small gain instead of taking a 20% chance at the gold. In this circumstance, I am motivated to roll on an item that I dont even really want due to the need over greed system.
In most cases, the value of the gold from selling a BoE will be more impactful to a players progression than equipping the BoE item itself. This is especially true for leveling characters or characters grinding dungeons with very few exceptions. This truth can even be extended into raiding. Is it numerically better to give a single rogue in the guild a Tebuu's Blazing Longsword for a minor damage increase (1/40 players gaining a stat advantage) or selling that same sword for 4-5000g and investing in consumes for the entire guild?
I'd like to start by saying im not fully committed to rolling need or greeding, but you are specifically asking for "the argument FPR "need BOE for AH"", so here it is.
Gold matters. Gold matters a lot. As a leveling warrior, I may not have many of my tanking abilities, I may not have a tanking set and I may not have a mount... A BoE item presents an opportunity for me to get gold to invest in an equal piece of gear OR something even more impactful like an ability I dont have access to or my mount. A group of random strangers will never be able to objectively determine who NEEDS an item the most. Due to the fact that gold is SO important in vanilla, a valuable BoE item is worth far more than its stats for any one individual.
Ninjaing. Just because someone can use an item, doesnt mean that they will. "Oh, but that will ruin their reputation..." Will it? Im a rogue with daggers in your group. Krol Blade drops. I roll need. You ask me to equip, I say "I fully intend to, I just havent trained swords". After I have left, you will never be able to prove I havent equipped it. I can always extend the lie by saying it is in my bank the next time we meet... Etc etc etc... Blizz already said they wont be resolving loot conflicts, everyone needing is a surefire way that no BoE can be ninja'd. A lot of players will risk staining their reputation for exceptional items...
Players are incentivized to need on items that they would prefer to sell so that they have guaranteed gain. People are inherently self interested... Lets assume I am in a group of 5 people. Im a good guy, I wont ninja, but Im still worried about #1. A Krol Blade drops. I would prefer to win the roll legitimately on a greed so I can sell it, but I dont completely trust the group AND I only have a 20% chance of winning... While the Krol Blade is a minor upgrade for me, I would still be incentivized to take the 100% chance of needing and equipping the item for a small gain instead of taking a 20% chance at the gold. In this circumstance, I am motivated to roll on an item that I dont even really want due to the need over greed system.
In most cases, the value of the gold from selling a BoE will be more impactful to a players progression than equipping the BoE item itself. This is especially true for leveling characters or characters grinding dungeons with very few exceptions. This truth can even be extended into raiding. Is it numerically better to give a single rogue in the guild a Tebuu's Blazing Longsword for a minor damage increase (1/40 players gaining a stat advantage) or selling that same sword for 4-5000g and investing in consumes for the entire guild?
Yeah this is a load of crap. You are needing for gold. Aka money. That is literally the definition of greed.
There should be a convention everything for gold - greed. Even the greed icon speaks for itself this button is for gold.
Just changed my vote to yes. My memories from Vanilla are slowly coming back to me. I still say the rules should be whatever everyone in the party agrees on, but.... The argument for everyone rolling need on all BoEs is sound. I know it might seem like going for gold is just being greedy, so that you should roll greed, but the simple fact is that everyone needs gold in Classic. This isn't going the be BFA, where gold is handed out like candy. There is your mount, spell learning costs, buying items off of the AH, etc. ad museum. You will constantly be broke if you aren't careful. It also reduces oops-I-rolled-need, and other more subtle forms of ninja looting. It is also eminently fair to everyone. Just my two cents.
There is no argument. Convo done.
all need BoE is the most fair way or else there will be all kinds of shenanigans.
for many items only suckers equip them. the Gold is more valuable and will benefit their progression more.
need is the only way to protect against ninjas.
all need BoE is the most fair way or else there will be all kinds of shenanigans.
for many items only suckers equip them. the Gold is more valuable and will benefit their progression more.
need is the only way to protect against ninjas.
I get the fact that it might cause some problems, but if we all need on BOE it will ruin the game for the folks that actually wants to equip the gear that drops.
Yes, it could be their epic mount but it could also be a huge upgrade for a person.
There you go, you answered your own question. All 5 members contributed equally to kill the mob, and all 5 members gain equal value from the item. Therefore it is unfair to claim that just one of those 5 players is arbitrarily entitled to the item.
Anyone who expects the other 4 members of the group to inexplicably shower them with loot is not going to be welcome to my (or most peoples') groups. Sadly that seems to be a lot of people in this thread.
Leave the entitlement at the door for the most enjoyable classic experience.
People voting yes; where do we draw the line then? Can everyone roll on flask recipes, leatherworking patterns, etc.?
I voted yes because the system works as intended. Intentions of the party may differ.
Personally I'd identify if we plan on all needing on BoEs to make it as fair as possible. BoE's serve a purpose for multiple reasons such as, gold, upgrades, and looks.
I think as long as everyone's on the same page before the dungeon starts, it's fine.
Gut instinct was no, but at the same time something that's a BoE upgrade for one person could be sold by another to buy a BoE upgrade for themselves. Everyone "needs" money.
Generally though I think you should assume people are voting based on whether they'll use the item unless everyone agrees otherwise.
People voting yes; where do we draw the line then? Can everyone roll on flask recipes, leatherworking patterns, etc.?
Again, assuming party consensus, I would say there is no line to draw. All BoEs roll need. Consider the following situation (it will apply to all scenarios, crafting as well): You are in a five man group. A nice hunter BoE bow drops. It's an upgrade for the hunter. Its worth 50 gold on the AH. How much is it worth to the non-hunters? Obviously its worth 50g to them. If it is worth more than 50g to the hunter then maybe we have an argument that it should go to him. But is it really worth more than 50g to him? Then why hasn't he farmed the gold and bought it off the AH? In fact it probably isn't worth more than 50g to him and even if he won it, he would be better off selling it on the AH and buying necessary skills or what not. This doesn't even factor in the added benefit of reducing ninja looting.
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
Silly comment, as if BoE needing originated from reddit. It's a WoW issue not a website oriented issue.
The design of the system is working as intended. As others have said before, communication is key. This isn't a LFD issue, this is a community issue between your 4 other members of the party. So while everyone can kumbaya vote what they feel, it doesn't change how the system works.
Generally speaking, be sure to talk and commune with your fellow server and guild mates. This is how you find like-minded players, create a fun experience, and atmosphere avoiding toxicity. :ugeek:
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
Silly comment, as if BoE needing originated from reddit. It's a WoW issue not a website oriented issue.
The design of the system is working as intended. As others have said before, communication is key. This isn't a LFD issue, this is a community issue between your 4 other members of the party. So while everyone can kumbaya vote what they feel, it doesn't change how the system works.
Generally speaking, be sure to talk and commune with your fellow server and guild mates. This is how you find like-minded players, create a fun experience, and atmosphere avoiding toxicity. :ugeek:
I was just referring to the reddit post mentioned earlier in the thread where the overwhelming majority seemed to be of the opinion that you should just need on everything.
I suppose I never paid any attention to it back then given that I was just playing the game, not looking at forums. I guess I should just count myself lucky that I played on such a great server where the idea always was that you only need on things you actually need and intend to use. Maybe it's also a difference between EU and NA and not just server specific? I'm not sure.
That's just the experience I had in all pugs, it was simply an unspoken rule, ninja looting was still very rare, I can't even remember a single time where I encountered a bad ninja looter. As I mentioned earlier in the thread exception would be made for extremely valuable items (rare patterns, recipes, twink items etc.) but overall the general idea that everyone agreed on was to press greed unless your character needed to use the item that dropped. I really hope I end up on a server with the same mentality in classic.
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.
If you see my post right before yours I mentioned how it was on my server originally which is why I'm very surprised by this viewpoint given that it was nonexistent for me back then. As I also mentioned I wonder if I was lucky with ending up on a server with such a friendly and trustworthy community or if there was such a big difference between EU and NA server ideas. I really don't know.
My viewpoint is that going in suspecting everyone of being a ninja looter just creates a negative atmosphere for everyone. Obviously there are bad apples but you whittle them out as you go and don't group with them anymore. I would go as far as to say 99% of people that I encountered were trustworthy and honest, maybe I just got lucky, we'll never know.
I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold. And even if so due to the unstable nature of the AH, how do you know such an item will even be up there for you to purchase? Maybe there is none. Maybe there is and it's ridiculously overpriced. Maybe the person who won the item after everyone needed it won't sell it to you for a fair price. Maybe the guy would just rather use it for his enchanting instead of letting you get an upgrade.
I highly preferred this way of handling loot and at least for the server I was on it worked really well. This is just my opinion of course, will be interesting to see what it will be like in classic.
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
Silly comment, as if BoE needing originated from reddit. It's a WoW issue not a website oriented issue.
The design of the system is working as intended. As others have said before, communication is key. This isn't a LFD issue, this is a community issue between your 4 other members of the party. So while everyone can kumbaya vote what they feel, it doesn't change how the system works.
Generally speaking, be sure to talk and commune with your fellow server and guild mates. This is how you find like-minded players, create a fun experience, and atmosphere avoiding toxicity. :ugeek:
I was just referring to the reddit post mentioned earlier in the thread where the overwhelming majority seemed to be of the opinion that you should just need on everything.
I suppose I never paid any attention to it back then given that I was just playing the game, not looking at forums. I guess I should just count myself lucky that I played on such a great server where the idea always was that you only need on things you actually need and intend to use. Maybe it's also a difference between EU and NA and not just server specific? I'm not sure.
That's just the experience I had in all pugs, it was simply an unspoken rule, ninja looting was still very rare, I can't even remember a single time where I encountered a bad ninja looter. As I mentioned earlier in the thread exception would be made for extremely valuable items (rare patterns, recipes, twink items etc.) but overall the general idea that everyone agreed on was to press greed unless your character needed to use the item that dropped. I really hope I end up on a server with the same mentality in classic.
It may be that a lot of original wow discussion was primarily on the general forums.
Looking at the https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-suggestions&t=359996&p=1&tmp=1#post35999 6">wayback machine we're repeating history...
I. "Need" Roll Soulbinds - Make all "Need" rolls automatically bind to the winner. This helps discourage players falsely claiming need in order to Auction an item.
so yay classic experience? haha
Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.
I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.
If you see my post right before yours I mentioned how it was on my server originally which is why I'm very surprised by this viewpoint given that it was nonexistent for me back then. As I also mentioned I wonder if I was lucky with ending up on a server with such a friendly and trustworthy community or if there was such a big difference between EU and NA server ideas. I really don't know.
My viewpoint is that going in suspecting everyone of being a ninja looter just creates a negative atmosphere for everyone. Obviously there are bad apples but you whittle them out as you go and don't group with them anymore. I would go as far as to say 99% of people that I encountered were trustworthy and honest, maybe I just got lucky, we'll never know.
I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold. And even if so due to the unstable nature of the AH, how do you know such an item will even be up there for you to purchase? Maybe there is none. Maybe there is and it's ridiculously overpriced. Maybe the person who won the item after everyone needed it won't sell it to you for a fair price. Maybe the guy would just rather use it for his enchanting instead of letting you get an upgrade.
I highly preferred this way of handling loot and at least for the server I was on it worked really well. This is just my opinion of course, will be interesting to see what it will be like in classic.
Fair enough. I had a different experience on an NA server. Ninja looting was a real problem. Looking at a retrospective thread about that server there are comments about one notorious looter. Yes Zode, we still remember you. Getting people to all roll need on all BoEs nullified that problem.