what am I missing with tokens? I feel like if player A farms for 3 hours and gets 100g, then player B spends his own money to buy a token, player A gets free play time and player B gets gold that was naturally produced by the in game economy.
No one "spawns" gold, no part of the economy is messed with. The amount of time player B saved in not farming his own gold probably is much less than player A gains in free game time (hopefully), so is the problem that player A will keep farming more gold which inflates amounts of gold?
To answer the initial question, I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter too much. Since no new gold is "spawned" from nowhere I feel like it can't really change things too much. I think that Classic will be at its best if Blizzard allows the community to do massive, population wide (active classic player only) votes on things like this, and will allow for changes to gradually be added to the game. This would also hopefully be the avenue they'd choose to use to introduce features from future patches.
The conjecture is about the prevalence of bots, how impactful will they be? How much can Blizz stamp them out? It's anecdotal and conjecture.
I always giggle when I see people highlight that we're participating in conjecture on a forum that discusses a game that hasn't been released. It's as if this is an attempt to detract from the conversation or to invalidate the conversation entirely... Why even participate? While we are sharing our personal opinions, those opinions are based on a variety of factors. My post was based on files found in the Classic beta, bots that currently exist in retail, the prevalence of botting on private and my own opinion on the future. This isn't meaningless drivel, and if you don't feel that its valuable, why participate? It seems like every conversation on this forum eventually leads to one party claiming "CONJECTURE"! I'll give you some insight, the entire premise of this forum is built on conjecture. Just because we are operating within the realm of incomplete information, does not mean that the discussions that are had are worthless.
I think that pretty much sums it up. They will avoid token on launch, but if they can't prevent botting to a large degree, they will likely turn to tokens.
They cant prevent botting, as can be seen with the video linked of players botting in BFA. I guess we are both in agreeance that they will eventually turn to tokens.
Obviously the preference of the majority of the community is to be more like vanilla and not have tokens, but again, they may eventually require it.
Yes, for now. The #nochanges movement is strong. It has derailed a lot of important talking pieces and silences a lot of important discussions... The only thing that has had more changes than the final product of Classic that we will be receiving is the definition of #nochanges :lol: by those who support the movement. "No changes, but I wouldn't be opposed to some increased difficulty"... "No changes, especially not graphics! But some of these modern graphic updates and increased ground clutter are nice"... "No changes! But layering isnt so bad, and its only temporary"... I think the community will come around, they just need time and a bit of diplomacy.
what am I missing with tokens? I feel like if player A farms for 3 hours and gets 100g, then player B spends his own money to buy a token, player A gets free play time and player B gets gold that was naturally produced by the in game economy.
No one "spawns" gold, no part of the economy is messed with. The amount of time player B saved in not farming his own gold probably is much less than player A gains in free game time (hopefully), so is the problem that player A will keep farming more gold which inflates amounts of gold?
To answer the initial question, I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter too much. Since no new gold is "spawned" from nowhere I feel like it can't really change things too much. I think that Classic will be at its best if Blizzard allows the community to do massive, population wide (active classic player only) votes on things like this, and will allow for changes to gradually be added to the game. This would also hopefully be the avenue they'd choose to use to introduce features from future patches.
You are looking at the situation objectively at an individual level. The greater economy isn't impacted (to the same degree) but the token itself ACKNOWLEDGES a pay to win element that exists with or without it. The highlight here is that people are opposed to the token based on principal. Regardless if gold is being traded all around them, they would rather turn a blind eye to the game and play in blissful ignorance. However, the token could increase the gold that is being traded. There is no evidence to confirm this, but this is the statement that people echoing opposition for the token are concerned with; they aren't wrong, they just don't have any evidence to support this claim.
What we know is that bots exist. They are an issue and they likely will be an issue in Classic. Do we sacrifice our own principals to preserve the economy of the game or do we sacrifice the economic health of the game to preserve our integrity? If so, why? It's an interesting conversation.
Edit: final sentence didnt make sense. Reformatted
What we know is that bots exist. They are an issue and they likely will be an issue in Classic. Do we sacrifice our own principals to preserve the economy of the game or do we sacrifice the economic health of the game to preserve our integrity? If so, why? It's an interesting conversation.
While the conversation is ongoing, it appears most people discussing in this particular thread would prefer that we could avoid tokens, as it appears to be a sore point from players retail experience. I don't think everything that is discussed is conjecture on these forums, but stating that something is guaranteed to happen in a game launch that hasn't happened, is fraught with some level of conjecture. Discussions are important, although you do seem to be quite defensive about tokens when people raise their own personal views on them, similar to layering.
What we know is that bots exist. They are an issue and they likely will be an issue in Classic. Do we sacrifice our own principals to preserve the economy of the game or do we sacrifice the economic health of the game to preserve our integrity? If so, why? It's an interesting conversation.
While the conversation is ongoing, it appears most people discussing in this particular thread would prefer that we could avoid tokens, as it appears to be a sore point from players retail experience. I don't think everything that is discussed is conjecture on these forums, but stating that something is guaranteed to happen in a game launch that hasn't happened, is fraught with some level of conjecture.
The word token will send most players into a flurry. If you separate yourself from your emotions, the #nochanges movement and look at what we know, it begins to get a bit more challenging to dismiss the token. I'm not saying that it is the clear choice, but there is certainly a case to be made for the token (a strong case). It is no different than other changes that had to be made. If the token is used, they will need to rebrand it so players will accept it.
Discussions are important, although you do seem to be quite defensive about tokens when people raise their own personal views on them, similar to layering.
I posted the thread and people are putting a lot of effort into their responses. Its my responsibility to reply. Not being defensive at all. I didnt create the post anticipating that everyone would be onboard, quite the opposite actually. Was looking forward to stimulating some conversation and hearing opinions. If you go back to my original post you will see that I mentioned:
Is the token pay to win? Yes. Is it the lesser of two evils? I would argue that it is. What is your argument against the token? Are you opposed based on the principal? Do you have evidence to suggest that the token increases the gold being purchased and thus making the game MORE pay to win? Look forward to hearing your thoughts.
I had anticipated this idea would be met with opposition and that the opposition would be primarily based on principal. I still think the conversation is worth having! =)
Stfuppercut, the conversations are always worth having, although sometimes your tone comes across quite defensive, and you tend to shut down peoples own opinions or experiences (because they are personal opinions) which you have asked them to share. That is the problem with a text based media though, things can be misunderstood or misconstrued.
As I said before, tokens may be required as a 'necessary evil' eventually - but I think it may go down badly, even if it is the right solution to an ongoing problem.
@Stfuppercut, the conversations are always worth having, although sometimes your tone comes across quite defensive, and you tend to shut down peoples own opinions or experiences (because they are personal opinions) which you have asked them to share. That is the problem with a text based media though, things can be misunderstood or misconstrued.
As I said before, tokens may be required as a 'necessary evil' eventually - but I think it may go down badly, even if it is the right solution to an ongoing problem.
It would be easy to drop a safe post without making myself vulnerable. I think to highlight a talking point and outline my opinion and then have a debate/discussion. Conversations like these allow me to challenge my own opinions and challenge the opinions of others! You and I have had several of these back and forths... You've said you enjoyed them and I've even had the pleasure of winning you over on layering. I chalk that up to a positive outcome. An outcome that isn't possible with a wishy-washy stance in a neutral tone that attempts to appease the needs/feelings of everyone... Sometimes we go days without a solid post to draw some attention, so there is nothing wrong with choosing a provocative topic and hearing eachother out. I for one feel that the token should be used, and I'm okay with outlining my stance and hearing people out. I will also challenge any other opinions that get posted because that creates good debate and is interesting to read.
The token is the nuclear answer to a global threat (botting/gold selling). You don't start the war with the nuke, but you keep it in your arsenal and acknowledge that using it is inevitable. Now THAT is a provocative statement!
:mrgreen: Would prefer buying gold from the chinese (venezuelan now?) just like old times.. #NoChanges
The token is the nuclear answer to a global threat (botting/gold selling). You don't start the war with the nuke, but you keep it in your arsenal and acknowledge that using it is inevitable. Now THAT is a provocative statement!
When I was a broke kid I would have killed to have an in game way to earn more game time, that in and of itself makes me feel ok with tokens as a concept. I don't see anyone getting hurt in this transaction, I would have gladly given someone in game gold for game time back in the day and I'd do it now too.
I guess I don't feel like tokens are pay to win in as much as you can't really pay to "win" world of warcraft. It would be the equivalent of playing Pokemon and paying real money to get a bunch of rare candies, you missed out on the whole game! What are you going to do now, just chill and do battlegrounds with whatever gear you can buy on the auction house?
The token is the nuclear answer to a global threat (botting/gold selling). You don't start the war with the nuke, but you keep it in your arsenal and acknowledge that using it is inevitable. Now THAT is a provocative statement!
When I was a broke kid I would have killed to have an in game way to earn more game time, that in and of itself makes me feel ok with tokens as a concept. I don't see anyone getting hurt in this transaction, I would have gladly given someone in game gold for game time back in the day and I'd do it now too.
I guess I don't feel like tokens are pay to win in as much as you can't really pay to "win" world of warcraft. It would be the equivalent of playing Pokemon and paying real money to get a bunch of rare candies, you missed out on the whole game! What are you going to do now, just chill and do battlegrounds with whatever gear you can buy on the auction house?
It would mean I could easily buy everything I wanted for my character on day 1 of reaching 60, making getting pre raid a lot easier.. I would not mind a token too much considering I used it in Retail to get things I wanted (black market auction thingy), but it would probably kill of some of the fun of gearing.
It would mean I could easily buy everything I wanted for my character on day 1 of reaching 60, making getting pre raid a lot easier.. I would not mind a token too much considering I used it in Retail to get things I wanted (black market auction thingy), but it would probably kill of some of the fun of gearing.
The token doesnt change that though. You will be able to buy gold from gold sellers within a week of your server launching. They will begin to stockpile and once they have excess gold they will start to spam... and spam... and spam... and spam. You will either be able to buy gold or buy the token. Without one, the other will exist.
Even if wow token is good or bad, they wont be in classic.
The classic devs has made that clear.
However you may use the very function of wow token from retail too add game time too classic.
And certainly compared too private server, Blizzard does have a modern system that could detect any third-party / Bots.
You will most likely not see a lot of them.
Personaly: I do not want too see it in Classic, it will cluster up the very server economy. #Nope
It would mean I could easily buy everything I wanted for my character on day 1 of reaching 60, making getting pre raid a lot easier.. I would not mind a token too much considering I used it in Retail to get things I wanted (black market auction thingy), but it would probably kill of some of the fun of gearing.
The token doesnt change that though. You will be able to buy gold from gold sellers within a week of your server launching. They will begin to stockpile and once they have excess gold they will start to spam... and spam... and spam... and spam. You will either be able to buy gold or buy the token. Without one, the other will exist.
Except buying gold from gold sellers could get me banned, while tokens I would have no problem buying as many as I wanted
The token is just a leftover from the retail client. The token system wasn't in original vanilla and won't be in classic.
The token is just a leftover from the retail client. The token system wasn't in original vanilla and won't be in classic.
Maybe. Battlenet wasn't in vanilla and it will be in Classic. Layering wasn't in vanilla and it will be in Classic. Numerous upgrades due to the modern infrastructure will be in Classic, they weren't in vanilla. Progressive itemization was a part of Vanilla, it wont be in Classic (thank god, I HATED progressive itemization on private). Right click reporting wasn't in vanilla... The list goes on and on. This isn't a 1-1 replication so your argument isn't compelling given the list of confirmed changes that we already have.
Except buying gold from gold sellers could get me banned, while tokens I would have no problem buying as many as I wanted
Repercussions are definitely a deterrent.
Except buying gold from gold sellers could get me banned, while tokens I would have no problem buying as many as I wanted
Repercussions are definitely a deterrent.
Yes, losing an account is never fun and one would have to weight that in when choosing to buy gold from gold sellers
Here's a different facet of the tokens that I haven't seen discussed much in this thread-
To Blizz, a token is worth 14.99 or w/e exactly 30 days game time is. To the person buying the token, it will only be worth whatever token-redeemers are willing to pay in gold, right? Does Blizz interfere with the price of tokens, like setting a floor or something? Is the price the same across all servers? I just wonder if there is a scenario where tokens are either a) too expensive gold-wise for anyone to bother spending their hard-earned Classic gold on them, or b) so inexpensive gold-wise that buying them with cash is significantly less gold than an equal dollar amount to a gold farmer. Or some sort of really weird scenario, like a server where token gold-prices have crashed and everyone is playing for free (doubtful I know).
Maybe these questions have answers that are easily seen by someone with a better understanding of economics or the token system in general, and maybe that person is in this thread? :lol:
Here's a different facet of the tokens that I haven't seen discussed much in this thread-
To Blizz, a token is worth 14.99 or w/e exactly 30 days game time is. To the person buying the token, it will only be worth whatever token-redeemers are willing to pay in gold, right? Does Blizz interfere with the price of tokens, like setting a floor or something? Is the price the same across all servers? I just wonder if there is a scenario where tokens are either a) too expensive gold-wise for anyone to bother spending their hard-earned Classic gold on them, or b) so inexpensive gold-wise that buying them with cash is significantly less gold than an equal dollar amount to a gold farmer. Or some sort of really weird scenario, like a server where token gold-prices have crashed and everyone is playing for free (doubtful I know).
Maybe these questions have answers that are easily seen by someone with a better understanding of economics or the token system in general, and maybe that person is in this thread? :lol:
The market determines the value of the token. Blizz wont interfere with the price of tokens as it doesn't matter to them. The token could be worth 10g or 1000g, Blizz makes the same money for the sub fee. The token will trend upwards or downwards depending on supply and demand. As less tokens are listed (depending on the buy rate) the price will fluctuate upwards and vice versa. I suppose in this regard, Blizzard controls that algorithm that determines the fluctuation of price, so they do control the shift in price to an extent?
Even if wow token is good or bad, they wont be in classic.
The classic devs has made that clear.
Theyve left this open for some speculation. They have eluded to no token, but they also said there would not be sharding and we received a form of sharding with layering. The token is still on the table until we have some empirical evidence to suggest otherwise. Though this thread isn't about whether it will be or wont be in Classic, rather the implications of having it in Classic.
However you may use the very function of wow token from retail too add game time too classic.
Which makes the waters murky. If anything, we have confirmation of a shared sub that can be hosted from a BFA token. We have veiled statements that elude to the token not being in the spirit of vanilla... But nothing has been confirmed. Mass-botting is also not something they want to contend with. We will have to see which issue is more pressing. The token or the bots/ gold selling.
And certainly compared too private server, Blizzard does have a modern system that could detect any third-party / Bots.
You will most likely not see a lot of them.
See the fishmonger video posted in the beginning of the thread. Bots are actively working in BFA, they are free to download and Classic will be free for users with an active sub to BFA. Potential overhead for running a bot in Classic? 0$. Barrier to entry? None. Foreseeable impact? Massive.
Personaly: I do not want too see it in Classic, it will cluster up the very server economy. #Nope
It will actually help the server economy, which is why they created it. For all the drawbacks the token presents, ruining the server economy is not one of them. The issue is that it makes the game pay to win. While I would argue that the game is pay to win regardless, as you can buy gold from a 3rd party, other users don't see it that way, which is totally fair. To your point, I don't want to see it in Classic either. I also don't want to see bots. Bots will be in Classic. They were in retail vanilla. They exist in private. They exist in BFA. They will exist in Classic. The token is the lesser of two evils.
I'll give you an example of how the token does less damage to the economy than a gold seller...
Sammy wants gold...
Sammy buys from the gold farmer who runs 15 fishing bots simultaneously destroying the server economy, destroying fishing and invalidating users who fish because they market is over-saturated. The farmer takes this black gold and sells it to other users in mass quantity while also buying key items to fluctuate the values on the server and control valuable resources. Inflation sky rockets but valuable consumes created from fish dive in price due to the overproduction of fish which shifts the meta of pvp due to consumable availability... Now pvpers are using MORE consumes, fishing is no longer worthwhile and the inflation of the server as a whole has been increased.
Sammy buys gold from Peter by trading him a token for gold. Peter fished on his own. Peter fishes EVERYDAY for hours and hours. Peter saves up his fish and positively contributes to the economy while also generating enough gold to trade Sammy for one month of game time. Sammy essentially opens trade and accepts clean gold that was generated by Peter while playing the game without cheating or disrupting the economy as a whole.
Sammy has paid to win. He would have done it either way. The token mitigated the impact of the transfer and preserved the greater economy as a whole.