I'm with @Nenski here, it would be drastically easier and risk free to create a bot for a shitty run MaNGOS pserver than a Blizzard run server utilising their latest security tech.
Right. But I linked a video of a bot being used in BFA. They exist. They work. Difficulty aside, they are available.
I don't want tokens, I want Classic WoW. I want Blizzard to continue to work on their security tech to prevent as many bots as possible and be ruthless with the ban hammer/legal threats. There will always be bots, so focus on reducing the bulk of them so we can just play classic as true to the vanilla experience as possible.
Thats a fair perception. I think this is the difference... We both accept that there will be bots and im okay with compromising on my own principals (selling the token) to alleviate most of the botting issue and promote a healthier economy. You guys would rather take a moral stance despite the fact that the token would likely be better for the health of the economy. Is that fair?
You guys would rather take a moral stance despite the fact that the token would likely be better for the health of the economy.
No, I just want Blizzard to focus on security and supplying Classic WoW experience, over providing a WoW Token as an easy out. Then you just have 2 camps competing against each other for who wants my credit card details. I just want to pay my subscription to play, knowing that Blizzard are doing everything they can to protect my playing experience that I am paying for.
No, I just want Blizzard to focus on security and supplying Classic WoW experience, over providing a WoW Token as an easy out.
This exactly it is an easy out. An easy solution to an inevitable problem. A problem that will be compounded by various contributing factors... Lower overhead... Inclusive sub... Modern generation of quick-fix gamers... The social perception of buying gold has be changed due to the token... Etc etc etc...
Then you just have 2 camps competing against each other for who wants my credit card details. I just want to pay my subscription to play, knowing that Blizzard are doing everything they can to protect my playing experience that I am paying for.
You and me both. But I think the easy out is the best method to avoid the inevitable outcome of gold sales. Despite the obvious drawbacks.
The #nochanges part of me will always have an issue with bringing WoW Token into Classic. And I tend to agree with previous posters that this will create insane inflation, and since I historically have no interest in gold farming, this will have a pretty detrimental effect on my playtime, as all services and auction house prices will be seriously inflated. Bots and gold buying are an underground blackmarket affair that would be closely scrutinised by Blizzard, and people will likely avoid buying from sketchy websites. WoW Token will be used by a vast majority of players and it will likely lead to a LOT of gold farming from players, inflating gold prices. It will be widespread and acceptable. Buying from sketchy gold seller websites is frowned on by the community and will not be widespread. The minority will be using bots/buying from gold sellers. The majority will be buying/selling WoW tokens. This is the problem I see.
The #nochanges part of me will always have an issue with bringing WoW Token into Classic. And I tend to agree with previous posters that this will create insane inflation, and since I historically have no interest in gold farming, this will have a pretty detrimental effect on my playtime, as all services and auction house prices will be seriously inflated.
I understand the sentiment, I just feel that the obvious impacts of a botter will inherently cause more inflation than players playing legitimately, positively contributing to the game and then trading other players their clean gold for game time.
Bots and gold buying are an underground blackmarket affair that would be closely scrutinized by Blizzard, and people will likely avoid buying from sketchy websites.
With the modern age of microtransactions and the high demand for gold, I can see many premier/trusted gold buying sites like elitemmorpg resurfacing with Classic if there is no token. There is FAR too much money to be made. Hell, on private players are paying 20-40$ USD for 100g on the first week of launch. This obviously balances over time, but even late game pservers are selling 100g for 10$. The demand is there and people will pay for it and thus bots will be ran to satiate that demand.
WoW Token will be used by a vast majority of players and it will likely lead to a LOT of gold farming from players, inflating gold prices. It will be widespread and acceptable. Buying from sketchy gold seller websites is frowned on by the community and will not be widespread. The minority will be using bots/buying from gold sellers. The majority will be buying/selling WoW tokens. This is the problem I see.
Where is the source on this though? How do we know that the token increases the amount of gold being purchased?
What's interesting about this to me is the wow tokens weren't introduced until pretty recently. There was botting for sure in Vanilla, BC, and wrath but it by no means completely destroyed the economy from what I remember.
Maybe I wasn't in the know enough but I don't see why it would be different now than it was then.
What's interesting about this to me is the wow tokens weren't introduced until pretty recently. There was botting for sure in Vanilla, BC, and wrath but it by no means completely destroyed the economy from what I remember.
Maybe I wasn't in the know enough but I don't see why it would be different now than it was then.
Quite the opposite actually. Playing on high population servers that were notorious for PvP, the presence of bots and inflation was all too obvious. Where there was a demand for gold, there were bots. The most obvious answer here would be that you simply dont realize the inflation if you are silo'd to a specific server, this just becomes your reality. "Oh yea, essence of fire are just 35g. They always have been"... Meanwhile on the low pop server with very few bots due to low demand, essence of fire are 5-10g.
The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded.
...
What is your argument against the token?
Very simple. I tried BFA on a new account (with no heirlooms). After realising that the leveling zones are dead and the leveling is a drag, I just wanted to check the end-game. I didn't want to use the one lvl110 boost I had (nor buy an another boost), so I bought one wow-token and sold it for 140k gold, allowing me to buy all max slot bags, all heirlooms, and more.
This immediately robbed me of any pleasure I could have had for upgrading items after playing for 30 minutes, and I logged off.
The difference is that if there was no wow token, I would in no way go to a shady 3rd party gold selling website to put (a) my credit card and (b) my battlenet account (which I've had for ages) at risk. The wow token was (a) convenient (b) legal. Buying from a shady 3rd person is not.
This isn't to say that noone will buy gold in classic because I know people do / did. I'm just saying that far less people will be willing to risk it because it is inconvenient and illegal.
The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded.
...
What is your argument against the token?
Very simple. I tried BFA on a new account (with no heirlooms). After realising that the leveling zones are dead and the leveling is a drag, I just wanted to check the end-game. I didn't want to use the one lvl110 boost I had (nor buy an another boost), so I bought one wow-token and sold it for 140k gold, allowing me to buy all max slot bags, all heirlooms, and more.
Well, I hope your self control increases before Classic, because you will have the opportunity to buy gold from gold sellers. If all it takes is the option, you will have the option to buy gold in Classic. The 3rd party sites will be far from shady and will have glowing user reviews. Check out some of the private server sites. They aren't shady at all (some are, but others are pretty decent). I obviously wont advertise any here, but where there is big money to be made, competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services. With the value of gold selling, they stand to make a lot of money from building a name and a reputation. You can be assured that this will be the case.
The way I see it, players will buy gold either way and there is no strong evidence to indicate that the token itself increase the quantity of gold being purchased and traded.
...
What is your argument against the token?
Very simple. I tried BFA on a new account (with no heirlooms). After realising that the leveling zones are dead and the leveling is a drag, I just wanted to check the end-game. I didn't want to use the one lvl110 boost I had (nor buy an another boost), so I bought one wow-token and sold it for 140k gold, allowing me to buy all max slot bags, all heirlooms, and more.
Well, I hope your self control increases before Classic, because you will have the opportunity to buy gold from gold sellers. If all it takes is the option, you will have the option to buy gold in Classic. The 3rd party sites will be far from shady and will have glowing user reviews. Check out some of the private server sites. They aren't shady at all (some are, but others are pretty decent). I obviously wont advertise any here, but where there is big money to be made, competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services. With the value of gold selling, they stand to make a lot of money from building a name and a reputation. You can be assured that this will be the case.
It sounds like you just quoted the part from my post that supports your ideology the best, whereas I've clearly stated
The difference is that if there was no wow token, I would in no way go to a shady 3rd party gold selling website to put (a) my credit card and (b) my battlenet account (which I've had for ages) at risk. The wow token was (a) convenient (b) legal. Buying from a shady 3rd person is not.
This isn't to say that noone will buy gold in classic because I know people do / did. I'm just saying that far less people will be willing to risk it because it is inconvenient and illegal.
I'm not arguing against "competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services". There will be gold sellers. The difference is your "average joe" (in this case, me) will not be going out of their way to search / ask around for (i) which gold selling sites are trustable - which ties back to my original argument that it is inconvenient, and (ii) put their battlenet account at risk.
Also you are comparing private servers selling gold vs. selling gold on official Classic servers. I'm sure the ways for Blizzard to catch gold buyers has improved drastically (I have no proof for or against this, but it just seems logical).
As a final note, as others have also stated, I think adding the wow-token to Classic servers will do more damage than good - not economy wise but for the general health of the game. The major selling point for Classic is to show that old school gaming (grindy, no MTX) is still what many players yearn for. By adding the wow-token (a sanctioned way of buying gold) to Classic, you are making the game pay to win officially, going against the values that Classic/Vanilla represents/represented.
I feel like this is not a "is buying gold via blizzard or 3rd party better or worse for players and/or economy" issue (maybe you are right, maybe having wow-token IS better for the game economy on the long run), but a rather "will including the wow-token have an adverse effect on how Classic is represented and perceived?" issue and the answer to this question would be a resounding YES.
Where is the source on this though? How do we know that the token increases the amount of gold being purchased?
This is all about a hypothetical situation that probably will never happen so you shouldn't be so hung up on a source because there isn't one out there to support either argument. (Honestly I think you know this and are using it as a blanket defense to hide behind wanting to be able to buy gold without getting banned). You can't get undeniable proof for either side, but you can use basic logic. The WOW token gives players have a way to buy gold easily, without risk out being banned, that is supported by blizzard. The general player base is more likely to buy gold when this is an option then buying it on a sketchy gold farming website.
I'm not arguing against "competent business people will commercialize the sale of gold and offer premier services". There will be gold sellers. The difference is your "average joe" (in this case, me) will not be going out of their way to search / ask around for (i) which gold selling sites are trustable - which ties back to my original argument that it is inconvenient, and (ii) put their battlenet account at risk.
The token is certainly more convenient than buying gold from a 3rd party, which is why it invalidates their business model. There is no doubt about that. Without the competition of the token, the 3rd party sites become the next most convenient source and thus get the business.
Also you are comparing private servers selling gold vs. selling gold on official Classic servers. I'm sure the ways for Blizzard to catch gold buyers has improved drastically (I have no proof for or against this, but it just seems logical).
I am using private servers as a metric, and I'll tell you why. Gold doesn't matter in retail WoW, yet there are still bots being created/used, even though farming gold is trivial and the token is available. The overhead for an account in Classic will be closer to a private server(free), than it is in retail. No base cost for the game and it will be inclusive for players who have an active sub for retail.
I'd like to isolate this snip:
which gold selling sites are trustable - which ties back to my original argument that it is inconvenient, and (ii) put their battlenet account at risk.
Are they though? If you get banned in Overwatch, your WoW account is fine. If you have several WoW accounts tied to one Bnet, and one gets banned, the others are fine. Why are we assuming that getting banned in Classic will have any effect on your retail account?
As a final note, as others have also stated, I think adding the wow-token to Classic servers will do more damage than good - not economy wise but for the general health of the game. The major selling point for Classic is to show that old school gaming (grindy, no MTX) is still what many players yearn for. By adding the wow-token (a sanctioned way of buying gold) to Classic, you are making the game pay to win officially, going against the values that Classic/Vanilla represents/represented.
This is valuable perspective and I can totally respect this sort of position. Honestly, time will tell. Its hard to say what would be better or worse. I tend to think the impact of gold farmers will have a DRAMATIC effect and will definitely be worse, but I can also see the counter-argument. The token does force you to sacrifice a certain set of principals that maintain the integrity of the game. Even if this hurts the economy more and is more damaging to the virtual health of the game.
I feel like this is not a "is buying gold via blizzard or 3rd party better or worse for players and/or economy" issue (maybe you are right, maybe having wow-token IS better for the game economy on the long run), but a rather "will including the wow-token have an adverse effect on how Classic is represented and perceived?" issue and the answer to this question would be a resounding YES.
I think you're right. There would be HUGE hurdles to overcome with player perception. Though they were able to rebrand sharding as layering. I think they would likely use a similar type of diplomacy to coerce the audience into accepting the token. They could call it a buddy pass or something? Whatever they chose to go with would probably work, if they played their cards right.
Where is the source on this though? How do we know that the token increases the amount of gold being purchased?
Like a lot of this discussion, it is based on anecdotal experience from those discussing the topics. From our standpoint we feel this will occur, from your standpoint and opinion you think it wont. I don't think Blizzard will likely release information to confirm one way or another on this matter.
This is all about a hypothetical situation that probably will never happen so you shouldn't be so hung up on a source because there isn't one out there to support either argument. (Honestly I think you know this and are using it as a blanket defense to hide behind wanting to be able to buy gold without getting banned).
I have provided sources throughout the conversation for claims I have made. Posters said botting wasn't a concern and used Blizzards anti cheat as a blanket solution to botting. I showed a video with an active bot that currently works in BFA. This invalidates all of the arguments for Blizzards anti cheat software. A bot exists. It isn't even a good bot... and its free... and it isn't getting users banned. Imagine when this game has millions of users and a dev's are incentivized to create good bots and charge 30-40$ for them?
You can't get undeniable proof for either side, but you can use basic logic. The WOW token gives players have a way to buy gold easily, without risk out being banned, that is supported by blizzard. The general player base is more likely to buy gold when this is an option then buying it on a sketchy gold farming website.
We have private servers as proof. Botting is a nightmare. Dismissing privates anticheat software is silly. Does Blizzard have better anticheat software? Yes... Of course silly. But there are still bots CURRENTLY working in BFA. So discussing Blizz's anticheat is redundant. Why would the Classic community behave any differently than a private community? They wont. There will be a demand for gold. Bots will satiate that demand. Bots are working despite Blizzards anti cheat. Botting is an issue in BFA but will grow in size when gold becomes valuable. In fact we may find the Classic community is even more casual and more inclined to purchase gold than the private server community. I don't see this as a stretch.
Why will this time potentially be worse than retail vanilla? The modern generation of gamers who are accustomed to micro-purchases and used to entering their credit cards on a variety of sites. The social stigma of buying gold is drastically different due to buying boosts and gold in retail. The overhead of running a bot is cheaper NOW than it was during retail vanilla. The demand for gold now will likely be higher than it was back then due to people having had the token for so many years and becoming accustomed to readily available gold. The accessibility of bots is easier now with guides/tutorials and free downloads. The inclusive cost of having free access to Classic with a BFA account may encourage semi-interested users to run a bot in Classic even though they aren't invested in Classic, simply because they have free access to the game. I could go on and on...
To be clear, I don't think the game will launch with a token, nor do I think it should. I think that the token preserves a better economic health for the game at the cost of our own principals in the long run. I think that the token may be a reality during Classic at some point and that it would be a wise implementation for Blizzard. Bots are inevitable, Blizz's anti cheat, as good as it is, isn't good enough. The token is a quick fix solution to a gigantic problem, but it doesn't come without its own costs. The private server community offers an excellent insight into what Classic may look like without a token and that reality is bleak.
Where is the source on this though? How do we know that the token increases the amount of gold being purchased?
Like a lot of this discussion, it is based on anecdotal experience from those discussing the topics. From our standpoint we feel this will occur, from your standpoint and opinion you think it wont. I don't think Blizzard will likely release information to confirm one way or another on this matter.
Pservers offer a great prototype for Classic. So my opinion is mostly based on what has/is happening. I supplemented this with video evidence of bots working in BFA despite Blizzards superior anti-cheat software. My own anecdotal experience and my own conjecture comes into play with the demands of gold and the psychology of the modern gamer. Make no mistake, botting will be an issue, but to what extent? I believe that the modern gamer will compound these issues and we have a recipe for disaster if we choose to avoid the token. See above comment.
I'll say that I am pro token
I don't think the game will launch with a token, nor do I think it should.
So you want WOW tokens to be added after launch at some point not to limit gold sale but instead to limit botting. What phase do you want them added in?
I'll say that I am pro token
I don't think the game will launch with a token, nor do I think it should.
So you want WOW tokens to be added after launch at some point not to limit gold sale but instead to limit botting. What phase do you want them added in?
Yes. Let players play. Let the economy stabilize. Assess the botting situation, make a judgement call after that and determine if tokens need to be implemented. If and when they decide the token will mitigate damages/loss, use the token. At a certain point this threshold will be reached and I would use the token at that time. As far as phases, I cant say.
Edit: We dont even know the duration of phases at this point so I would be speaking completely out of turn.
Make no mistake, botting will be an issue, but to what extent?
I think this is where the whole argument kind of falls over. No one knows what will occur and to what extent, be it botting for fishing, be it gold farming and inflation.
Assess the botting situation, make a judgement call after that and determine if tokens need to be implemented.
Basically this. If they find that they can't stop bots, they may look to rely on tokens. My hope is they have enough success deterring bots to avoid it, but it may end up unavoidable. Only time will tell, until then, we will rely on conjecture :wink:
Make no mistake, botting will be an issue, but to what extent?
I think this is where the whole argument kind of falls over. No one knows what will occur and to what extent, be it botting for fishing, be it gold farming and inflation.
Botting was an issue in retail vanilla. Botting is an issue on private. Botting is an issue in BFA. It's a stretch to assume it will be an issue in Classic? Interesting...
assess the botting situation, make a judgement call after that and determine if tokens need to be implemented.
Basically this. If they find that they can't stop bots, they may look to rely on tokens. My hope is they have enough success deterring bots to avoid it, but it may end up unavoidable. Only time will tell, until then, we will rely on conjecture :wink:
Well, we know they cant stop bots. That isn't conjecture. I linked a video with botting. They will need to determine when the cost of the token outweighs the damages that are caused without it. I personally believe this is an inevitability...
It's a stretch to assume it will be an issue in Classic? Interesting...
I never said they will stop botting, please find my post stating that they can stop botting completely. Let me quote myself from earlier in case you didn't read it:
I want Blizzard to continue to work on their security tech to prevent as many bots as possible and be ruthless with the ban hammer/legal threats. There will always be bots, so focus on reducing the bulk of them so we can just play classic as true to the vanilla experience as possible.
The conjecture is about the prevalence of bots, how impactful will they be? How much can Blizz stamp them out? It's anecdotal and conjecture. Linking a fishing bot != bots running riot in Classic. Pserver != Classic and Vanilla != Classic. Classic hasn't existed, we don't know how many or how invasive the bots will be. Blizzard can't stop all the bots, but I hope they can try to stop a lot of them. Like I said in my last post:
Basically this. If they find that they can't stop bots, they may look to rely on tokens. My hope is they have enough success deterring bots to avoid it, but it may end up unavoidable.
I think that pretty much sums it up. They will avoid token on launch, but if they can't prevent botting to a large degree, they will likely turn to tokens. Obviously the preference of the majority of the community is to be more like vanilla and not have tokens, but again, they may eventually require it.