Whole vanilla is about: time invested>>>skill. So just leave it as it is.
I will patiently wait for tbc :smile:
And this notion, which is 100% accurate, is what created the massive gap between the top players and the bottom players in Vanilla... Because the top players played more so they were typically more familiar with the game and more knowledgeable AND had an insane amount of gear. Imagine being in raid gear, understanding the strong synergies in your talent tree and using a build that was theorycrafted, using addons and keybinds and fighting against people with half of your health who were keyboard turning and clicking ALL of their abilities - this was vanilla. There was a massive disparity between the top and bottom of the playerbase and I think this made the game strong because you could be strong (as @cletus eluded to above, you cant be strong when everyone is strong). The game rewarded effort. A combination of time (with an emphasis on time) but with an element of self-development and know-how. If you put effort into vanilla, you could be awesome but without effort, you were going to suck. No amount of inherent skill could carry you at a certain gear threshold. Vanilla was not balanced, vanilla was not forgiving and inclusive; vanilla was a story of the haves and the have-nots. You were either lounging at the top as an apex predator or you were being hunted. This added to the games social dynamic and ingame social hierarchy while setting achievable parameters for greatness that incentivized spending time ingame... In an MMO... Gosh, who'da thunk it??? Its almost like they wanted people to log in!
Dont get me wrong I was pumped to PvP in BC in a truly competitive environment in the form of arenas and I loved that era of the game, but this is a different era and those changes in BC came at a cost. Unpopular opinion from some who played a SHITload of Vanilla and BC and peaked as a player in BC: BC may have been the most casual version of the game we have ever seen. Yes. More casual than retail. As a warrior I was able to craft my BiS PvP weapon in the form of stomherlad, not contested until LATE into BC. I was able to buy badge reward fist weapons from a vendor after completing heroic dungeons that provided MORE DPS than the legendary swords off of Illidan. My season 3 gear, was better for PvE until I got into Sunwell. Resilience... Oh resilience... The game tried to build a competitive atmosphere and sacrificed a lot of the MMO vibe. I had friends who would casually log into alts and complete their 10 arenas per week while sporting (arguably) the best gear in the game. It was the equivalent of war tables and took about as much time cumulatively in a week, as managing war tables did or less.
As always, you could nitpick these individual issues with BC and offer a solution to some of the inherent problems of BC, but this will always be a balance. You can not create the perfect game, so you balance attributes of your game to the best of your ability while adhering to your core game philosophies. When you step outside of those philosophies and begin to change major aspects of the game, you sacrifice the integrity of the game and the authenticity of your project.
Hey Redridge, didnt you say you part of development or something for vanilla at one point?
What is the downside of having 2 honor systems? One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds.
What is the downside of having 2 honor systems? One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds.
Its dumb.
Man, do you post about anything other than changing the Honor system in WoW to reward casuals who can't put up with the grind in this game? Your last 4 threads had nothing but "let's add more incentive for people out in the world" but in reality the recurrent theme of what you're asking is for easier ways to grind R10/R14 gear.
There enough incentives for World-PvP as is, there's no need to pursue any discussion on your proposed Ashran-like changes. I have over 300 people in my guild who are interested in World-PvP and I've never once heard them say they need an incentive to do large scale World-PvP fights. The incentives are already there, especially for P2 of content - the only people crying for changes to the PvP system are the people who want the gear but don't want to/can't work for it.
Man, do you post about anything other than changing the Honor system in WoW to reward casuals who can't put up with the grind in this game? Your last 4 threads had nothing but "let's add more incentive for people out in the world" but in reality the recurrent theme of what you're asking is for easier ways to grind R10/R14 gear.
There enough incentives for World-PvP as is, there's no need to pursue any discussion on your proposed Ashran-like changes. I have over 300 people in my guild who are interested in World-PvP and I've never once heard them say they need an incentive to do large scale World-PvP fights. The incentives are already there, especially for P2 of content - the only people crying for changes to the PvP system are the people who want the gear but don't want to/can't work for it.
It's like trying to explain the concept of fun to an alien without a personality.
How do you all feel about changing the Ranking System to static honor values that are not based on the performance of other members of your faction? This way anyone could eventually achieve Rank 14 if they grinded enough. Rank 14 would require a certain maximum amount of honor earned, and once it was reached, a player would earn the ranking.
No. There are some things that most people should never be able to achieve. Rank 14 should be borderline impossible for anybody to get, and only a small handful of people should ever achieve it. I will never reach Rank 14 on PvP. Most people should never get there. Some things in this game need to be just about impossible to do. Achieving Rank 14 in classic requires an obsessive and unhealthy amount of grinding, and that's awesome. It makes the achievements of those that do a lot more special and adds flavor to the game.
Handing out 'you tried' style participation trophies waters down the game. I'm not interested in seeing Ironforge full of Grand Marshalls.
Man, do you post about anything other than changing the Honor system in WoW to reward casuals who can't put up with the grind in this game? Your last 4 threads had nothing but "let's add more incentive for people out in the world" but in reality the recurrent theme of what you're asking is for easier ways to grind R10/R14 gear.
There enough incentives for World-PvP as is, there's no need to pursue any discussion on your proposed Ashran-like changes. I have over 300 people in my guild who are interested in World-PvP and I've never once heard them say they need an incentive to do large scale World-PvP fights. The incentives are already there, especially for P2 of content - the only people crying for changes to the PvP system are the people who want the gear but don't want to/can't work for it.
The Battleground system makes World PvP honor grinding worthless? Are you not aware of this? Once players stop getting reward for doing World PvP it happens less and less. When Phase 3 happens World PvP honor grinding is irrelevant. Classic WoW is about rewarding players for being in the open world. Phase 3 will involves Premade groups stomping randoms in crossrealm battlegrounds all day. They won't even bother to leave the Capital Cities, for fear they might miss a battleground queue pop. Do you understand that once many players reach rank 10 or 11 their progression ends unless they are in some premade clique. It is bad design.
I am suggesting adding a second honor system. One that is only for World PvP. What are the downsides? Nobody has answered this.
How do you all feel about changing the Ranking System to static honor values that are not based on the performance of other members of your faction? This way anyone could eventually achieve Rank 14 if they grinded enough. Rank 14 would require a certain maximum amount of honor earned, and once it was reached, a player would earn the ranking.
No. There are some things that most people should never be able to achieve. Rank 14 should be borderline impossible for anybody to get, and only a small handful of people should ever achieve it. I will never reach Rank 14 on PvP. Most people should never get there. Some things in this game need to be just about impossible to do. Achieving Rank 14 in classic requires an obsessive and unhealthy amount of grinding, and that's awesome. It makes the achievements of those that do a lot more special and adds flavor to the game.
Handing out 'you tried' style participation trophies waters down the game. I'm not interested in seeing Ironforge full of Grand Marshalls.
First of all, having Rank 14 be attainable through maximum honor earned doesn't make it casual. The maximum honor requried could be so high that you might have to grind for hours every day for a year or something. It is an alternative of forcing players to grind for 15 hours a day for several months. The distrubtion of players that acheived Rank 14 would effectively be the same. Regardless, that is not the real issue that is being discussed. The concern is how Battlegrounds invalidate World PvP. That is a glaring issue with Classic WoW, especially considering we will be getting Crossrealm Battlegrounds, which were not in Vanilla until the very end. Nonstop battleground queueing against randoms from other servers is exactly what Retail is. Why do we want Classic to be the same?
What is the downside of having 2 honor systems? One for World PvP and one for Battlegrounds.
Its dumb.
How is it dumb? The current system in Classic makes honor gains from World PvP insignificant. In phase 2 World PvP is all that matters, then suddenly its a futile way to rank up. How is that now dumb?
First of all, having Rank 14 be attainable through maximum honor earned doesn't make it casual. The maximum honor requried could be so high that you might have to grind for hours every day for a year or something. It is an alternative of forcing players to grind for 15 hours a day for several months. The distrubtion of players that acheived Rank 14 would effectively be the same.
> Current system is standings based and only allows one person to reach Rank 14 at a time
> New system with a static honor point number for Rank 14
> This will somehow not make it so everybody can grind to rank 14
The concern is how Battlegrounds invalidate World PvP
Nothing is stopping you from going outside and doing PvP. Just go outside and do PvP. Not sure if you're aware but contested territory already exists.
First of all, having Rank 14 be attainable through maximum honor earned doesn't make it casual. The maximum honor requried could be so high that you might have to grind for hours every day for a year or something. It is an alternative of forcing players to grind for 15 hours a day for several months. The distrubtion of players that acheived Rank 14 would effectively be the same.
> Current system is standings based and only allows one person to reach Rank 14 at a time
> New system with a static honor point number for Rank 14
> This will somehow not make it so everybody can grind to rank 14
The concern is how Battlegrounds invalidate World PvP
Nothing is stopping you from going outside and doing PvP. Just go outside and do PvP. Not sure if you're aware but contested territory already exists.
What you are saying isnt accurate. More than one player can be Rank 14 at the same time.
Players want rewards from PvP. Doing World PvP for meaningless honor rewards is exactly how Retail is. Guess what? Nobody does World PvP there.
What you are saying isnt accurate. More than one player can be Rank 14 at the same time.
Players want rewards from PvP. Doing World PvP for meaningless honor rewards is exactly how Retail is. Guess what? Nobody does World PvP there.
Obtaining rank 14 requires that you be #1 in honor against everybody else, meaning one person at a time gets in. If there is an arbitrary amount of honor points, as many people as have the arbitrary number of honor points gets in. This devalues the rank and waters down the game.
Players will do whatever is most efficient. If world PvP becomes the most efficient way, then nobody does battlegrounds.
Go out into contested territory and go PvP. You can totally already do this. Your faction PvP rewards can come from mining ore and posting it on the auction hall. You can pretend they were dropped out of airplanes.
What you are saying isnt accurate. More than one player can be Rank 14 at the same time.
Players want rewards from PvP. Doing World PvP for meaningless honor rewards is exactly how Retail is. Guess what? Nobody does World PvP there.
Obtaining rank 14 requires that you be #1 in honor against everybody else, meaning one person at a time gets in. If there is an arbitrary amount of honor points, as many people as have the arbitrary number of honor points gets in. This devalues the rank and waters down the game.
Players will do whatever is most efficient. If world PvP becomes the most efficient way, then nobody does battlegrounds.
Go out into contested territory and go PvP. You can totally already do this. Your faction PvP rewards can come from mining ore and posting it on the auction hall. You can pretend they were dropped out of airplanes.
Battlegrounds make ranking up in World PvP not feasible. Having a second system for World PvP allows players to rank up doing World PvP.
Players will do what is most efficient? If ranking up in World PvP is too competitive, then players can choose to rank up in battlegrounds instead. There is incentive in doing either option. If everyone was ranking up in Battlegrounds, then you would have less competition to reach rank 14 doing World PvP. Why is this so hard to understand?
Battlegrounds make ranking up in World PvP not feasible. Having a second system for World PvP allows players to rank up doing World PvP.
Players will do what is most efficient? If ranking up in World PvP is too competitive, then players can choose to rank up in battlegrounds instead. There is incentive in doing either option. If everyone was ranking up in Battlegrounds, then you would have less competition to reach rank 14 doing World PvP. Why is this so hard to understand?
A second system that players will do, invalidating the previous system entirely. Because players will choose the path of least resistance. Who would go for rank 14 in a system with such high competition and decay, when you could just opt to take the easier route... So why run two parallel systems? Either advocate that the honor system is completely replaced or accept that it should exist as it was. Acknowledge what the user above you wrote. Dont just keep treading water in circles. Read what he wrote, understand it and then build off of that. Each and every time someone gives you constructive criticism that you cant rebut, you just restate your previous opinion. Running two parallel systems is a terrible solution to a problem that does not exist.
Battlegrounds make ranking up in World PvP not feasible. Having a second system for World PvP allows players to rank up doing World PvP.
Players will do what is most efficient? If ranking up in World PvP is too competitive, then players can choose to rank up in battlegrounds instead. There is incentive in doing either option. If everyone was ranking up in Battlegrounds, then you would have less competition to reach rank 14 doing World PvP. Why is this so hard to understand?
A second system that players will do, invalidating the previous system entirely. Because players will choose the path of least resistance. Who would go for rank 14 in a system with such high competition and decay, when you could just opt to take the easier route... So why run two parallel systems? Either advocate that the honor system is completely replaced or accept that it should exist as it was. Acknowledge what the user above you wrote. Dont just keep treading water in circles. Read what he wrote, understand it and then build off of that. Each and every time someone gives you constructive criticism that you cant rebut, you just restate your previous opinion. Running two parallel systems is a terrible solution to a problem that does not exist.
Do you not understand that having a second system would give players more options for ranking up? The population would be divided between ranking up World PvP or Battlegrounds, therefore making it less competitive. The path of least resistance in this case isn't constant, which means that players would have a choices for ranking up. If everyone was ranking up in Battlegrounds, then you could do World PvP and face no competition. The more competitive one system, the less competitive the other system is. This gives players an incentive to use both systems for ranking up. Why is this difficult to comprehend?
The poster you are referring to is spreading misinformation. You seem to not understand the concept of path of least resistance. The level of competition between having two system isn't static. The path of least resistance would constantly fluxuate, which is why both systems would be used. Ranking up doing world pvp is obsolete once battlegrounds are release. How can you claim that a problem doesn't exist? The battleground system literally negates World PvP progression.
Do you not understand that having a second system would make it easier to rank up?
Yes. That isn't a good thing either.
The population would be divided between ranking in World PvP or Battlegrounds, therefore making it less competitive.
Therefore making it FAR less competitive.
The path of least resistance in this case isn't constant, which means that players would have a choices for ranking up. If everyone was ranking up in Battlegrounds, then you could do World PvP and face no competition. Why is this difficult to comprehend?
It is constant, because your system will still be easier to grind and players wont be gate kept behind thresholds each week in brackets. Constantly easier. They will be able to farm honor infinitely, allowing them to get further. Realms will opt to find a "spot" that will become an honor farming spot and all 60s will arrive and farm one another. Sounds glorious right? A real PvP zone like you wanted! The reality will be far more bleak. For many 60s, you will simply find them sitting at a graveyard accepting rez over and over allowing the opposing faction to grind. Cross faction collaboration will explode and your idea will invalidate the traditional rank grind.
This is the part where you try to address all these concerns that you hadn't thought of. Be sure to frame your answer in a way that implies you did think of these inevitable outcomes.
edit: I will add that moderating win trading in an open world environment will be FAR harder for Blizz than it is in BG's, and they havent been able to mitigate much of the win trading in BG's, so this will inevitably be worse.
Ranking up doing world pvp is obsolete once battlegrounds are release.
And your system makes BG's obsolete. Its as if we need to make a choice. Its as if these systems wont be able to coexist.
And your system makes BG's obsolete. Its as if we need to make a choice. Its as if these systems wont be able to coexist.
There would always be an incentive to do both systems, because one of them would have less competition. How does it make doing battlegrounds for ranking obsolete? If everyone is ranking up in World PvP, then that means there is no competition for ranking up in Battlegrounds. You rank up relative to the honor earned by players on your faction. If everyone is doing World PvP except for 100 players doing battlegrounds, then the path of least resistance is to do battlegrounds. You could rank up doing battlegrounds instead. World PvP players realize that battleground farming is faster so they swap to that. Once battleground farming becomes too competitive or satured, then more players return to farming World PvP.
In Classic WoW there is only one honor system. Players choose the path of least resistance, which is to rank up doing Battlegrounds because the honor rewards are far better than World PvP. That path of least resistance does not change, because premade crossrealm battlegrounds give the fastest honor. That is the whole problem. World PvP progression becomes unfeasible.
RedridgeGnoll I'm not going to use arbitrary numbers to build an argument, but I can tell you this. Your world PvP ideas are not new. They are all awful... You have posted dozens and dozens of theories, and I have never seen any portion of these ideas appeal to ANYONE on this very forum. That metric alone should show how much interest people have in your desired changes for the game. They're bad ideas and are in poor taste. In relation to running two PvP reward systems simultaneously where one is FAR easier to gain rewards from, this idea is fucking awful. Its awful for ALL of the reasons that we have explained through this very thread. If you lack the critical thinking required to disseminate this information, I wont be able to simplify it for you any further.
Players will choose the path of least resistance. Your idea is poorly thought out. I dont think you have the experience with WoW that the rest of us do, which is likely why you lack the foresight to see how these ideas are awful. I can say that because most of these ideas were eventually implemented into the game, they are not original and we have seen the outcome. This specific idea is just plain silly.
Why not add a new PvE tier? Maybe an easy mode? Maybe add a hardcore mode to raids? Or a mythic mode? Lets run parallel versions of everything... Oh wait. Thats what fucking retail did and it watered the game down. I guess this is tough for you because it doesnt really sound like you ever played WoW so you have such an uninformed perspective, for the rest of us who have played, we know how this ends.
What I am trying to say is that the rank grind already offers an obtainable path for casuals like yourself. The blue set of gear. That is your prize for participating. Not everyone gets to win and be rank 14. This is a core game philosophy of classic, there are natural tiers of progression within the game.
@RedridgeGnoll I'm not going to use arbitrary numbers to build an argument, but I can tell you this. Your world PvP ideas are not new. They are all awful... You have posted dozens and dozens of theories, and I have never seen any portion of these ideas appeal to ANYONE on this very forum. That metric alone should show how much interest people have in your desired changes for the game. They're bad ideas and are in poor taste. In relation to running two PvP reward systems simultaneously where one is FAR easier to gain rewards from, this idea is fucking awful. Its awful for ALL of the reasons that we have explained through this very thread. If you lack the critical thinking required to disseminate this information, I wont be able to simplify it for you any further.
Players will choose the path of least resistance. Your idea is poorly thought out. I dont think you have the experience with WoW that the rest of us do, which is likely why you lack the foresight to see how these ideas are awful. I can say that because most of these ideas were eventually implemented into the game, they are not original and we have seen the outcome. This specific idea is just plain silly.
Why not add a new PvE tier? Maybe an easy mode? Maybe add a hardcore mode to raids? Or a mythic mode? Lets run parallel versions of everything... Oh wait. Thats what fucking retail did and it watered the game down. I guess this is tough for you because it doesnt really sound like you ever played WoW so you have such an uninformed perspective, for the rest of us who have played, we know how this ends.
What I am trying to say is that the rank grind already offers an obtainable path for casuals like yourself. The blue set of gear. That is your prize for participating. Not everyone gets to win and be rank 14.
You can't comprehend this concept. If there are two systems, then one will be more competitive. Players will then be incentivized to use the less competitive system. When more players join the less competitive system, it becomes more competitive. The cycle then repeats itself. In Classic WoW battlegrounds render ranking up in World PvP basically impossible. It makes World PvP pointless, because players choose the definite path of least resistance, which is farming battlegrounds. Having a second system will make World PvP a viable way to rank up, and does not force players to partcipate in both methods of ranking up.
You can't comprehend this concept.
Do you have a discord? I want to legit talk to you to see if this is real life? lol