What so many fail to understand is that TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
TBC? no. Wrath? yes.
TBC stayed true to Classic Balance/Design (hybrid tax), to having to progress from one raid to another, and to ensuring that dungeons were time consuming and required coordination and cc.
TBC did not equalize dps of hybrids with pures.
TBC did not give access to everything to everyone.
TBC did not make dungeons aoe tank and spank chain pull fests (unless you outgeared it).
TBC kept the attuning to raids (and even some dungeons) until they were removed near the end to get ready for wrath.
TBC subscribed to one difficulty of raid.
the expansion you are thinking about is WRATH.
Yes, 1-60 was more meaningful during TBC and Wrath than today, and yes those two expansions also resemble Classic more closely than retail. I don't really see how this argument validates anything because of course it is true. There is only 1 expansion between vanilla and Wrath, and we have 4 expansions in between Legion and Wrath.
This is false.
Burning Crusade more closely resembles classic/vanilla. this is true.
Wrath? wrath was modern wow design through and through.
aoe tank and spank dungeons? check
equalization of dps? check
everyone has aoe? cc? check
release of one patch includes plenty of catchup mechanics so you can skip previous content? check
multiple difficulty settings for raids? check
easy baseline raid difficulty? check
Automated Grouping with teleports to dungeons? check
Extreme Ease of leveling? check
not having to attune to raids or dungeons? check
Yes, 1-60 was more meaningful during TBC and Wrath than today, and yes those two expansions also resemble Classic more closely than retail. I don't really see how this argument validates anything because of course it is true. There is only 1 expansion between vanilla and Wrath, and we have 4 expansions in between Legion and Wrath.
This is false.
Burning Crusade more closely resembles classic/vanilla. this is true.
Wrath? wrath was modern wow design through and through.
aoe tank and spank dungeons? check
equalization of dps? check
everyone has aoe? cc? check
release of one patch includes plenty of catchup mechanics so you can skip previous content? check
multiple difficulty settings for raids? check
easy baseline raid difficulty? check
Automated Grouping with teleports to dungeons? check
Extreme Ease of leveling? check
not having to attune to raids or dungeons? check
All that said, I agree. Unfortunately for me, deathknight is by far my favorite class in wow, mostly for lore reasons. The closest I can get to playing a dk in vanilla is wrath, since that's the closest expansion to vanilla that had them.
I would absolutely love it if they redid wotlk and tbc with classic design philosophy, so I guess in a way I am asking for classic+?
But that brings us back to the whole "what does classic+ really mean" debate.
I would absolutely love it if they redid wotlk and tbc with classic design philosophy, so I guess in a way I am asking for classic+?
BC did follow classic design.
Classic + means different things based on who you ask.
which is why Classic + is so hard to make work.
BC did follow classic design.
I agree, but as we have already seen, other people in this thread strongly disagree.
What is so good about WOTLK?
Btw the answer to this is story. Arthas and the scourge is the best storyline in the warcraft universe. That is why wrath had the highest population in that chart that was being linked earlier. That is also why Legion had such a large population spike in the same chart. Legion has imo the second best story.
Arthas and the scourge are solid, interesting, ominous enemies. So are Sargeras and the burning legion.
(Imho) Cata, MOP, WOD, and BFA have shit stories, which is why you see the massive population drops.
What is so good about WOTLK?
Btw the answer to this is story. Arthas and the scourge is the best storyline in the warcraft universe. That is why wrath had the highest population in that chart that was being linked earlier. That is also why Legion had such a large population spike in the same chart. Legion has imo the second best story.
Arthas and the scourge are solid, interesting, ominous enemies. So are Sargeras and the burning legion.
(Imho) Cata, MOP, WOD, and BFA have shit stories, which is why you see the massive population drops.
story and Ulduar. that's literally it.
TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
That's utter bollocks. The biggest shift in game design philosophy came between MoP and WoD. BC didn't make the entire 1-60 world obsolete. It only made level 58-60 content obsolete. You still had to get your character from level 1 to level 58 in the old world if you wanted to get to Outland. You still had to farm old world mats to get your professions high enough to use Outland mats. Warlords was the expansion that said "yeah fuck all that shit, just buy a boost to 90 and start making Draenor gear with level 1 professions. Or no professions, if you have the right garrison buildings"
TBC did not equalize dps of hybrids with pures.
TBC did not give access to everything to everyone.
TBC did not make dungeons aoe tank and spank chain pull fests (unless you outgeared it).
TBC kept the attuning to raids (and even some dungeons) until they were removed near the end to get ready for wrath.
TBC subscribed to one difficulty of raid.
aoe tank and spank dungeons? check
equalization of dps? check
everyone has aoe? cc? check
release of one patch includes plenty of catchup mechanics so you can skip previous content? check
multiple difficulty settings for raids? check
easy baseline raid difficulty? check
Automated Grouping with teleports to dungeons? check
Extreme Ease of leveling? check
not having to attune to raids or dungeons? check
None of those have anything to do with modern WoW design philosophy expect the "these amplifiers go up to eleven" raid difficulty tradmill.
The biggest shift in game design philosophy came between MoP and WoD
disagree, the biggest change was towards "bring the player not the class" and the design change of everyone should be able to see content.
I'm really only playing Classic to show support for TBC/WotLK in the future. Vanilla gameplay is a little bland for my tastes... but I'd still rather play Vanilla than BfA, especially if it helps Blizz decide to open TBC.
disagree, the biggest change was towards "bring the player not the class"
That is player behavior, not game design.
TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
That's utter bollocks. The biggest shift in game design philosophy came between MoP and WoD. BC didn't make the entire 1-60 world obsolete. It only made level 58-60 content obsolete. You still had to get your character from level 1 to level 58 in the old world if you wanted to get to Outland. You still had to farm old world mats to get your professions high enough to use Outland mats. Warlords was the expansion that said "yeah fuck all that shit, just buy a boost to 90 and start making Draenor gear with level 1 professions. Or no professions, if you have the right garrison buildings"
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes), and streamlining and optimization of quest rewards. (
WOD and the beginning of pruning was the real shameful turn away from the old style of combat.
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes),
Heirlooms started in wrath and real talent trees weren't removed until Pandaland.
In my personal opinion.
I am a classic player, not a tbc or any other expansion kind lover.
But do not mind new content as long it keeps my game separate.
A few servers that is TBC, so that those that longed for offical TBC servers gets it. And i of course can keep my Vanilla with no sprinkles.
None of those have anything to do with modern WoW design philosophy expect the "these amplifiers go up to eleven" raid difficulty tradmill.
all those are standard modern wow design. sorry you don't like it.
That is player behavior, not game design.
umm. wow. someone not paying attention. blizzard was the one who said that.
https://www.engadget.com/2009/02/27/ghostcrawler-on-the-success-of-bring-the-player-not-the-class/ and it started with wrath. but good try.
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes),
Heirlooms started in wrath and real talent trees weren't removed until Pandaland.
My bad I guess, it all blurs together, but screw heirlooms and new talent trees.
I think they should definitely do TBC on a separate realm where you can copy your character.
They have potential to kill all private servers very easily. Offer The classic/tbc/wrath option at a reduced price like 8.99 a month versus the 14.99 and they can combat people from leaving and joining private servers.
The main reason I played private servers in TBC back then was because it was free. That's the main reason most played them then. Most play them now for the nostalgia.
They need to capitalize! Keep us wanting to spend the money and not lose it to private server donations and other bs.
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes),
Heirlooms started in wrath and real talent trees weren't removed until Pandaland.
More Anti-Cataclysm propaganda. What else is new.
None of those have anything to do with modern WoW design philosophy expect the "these amplifiers go up to eleven" raid difficulty tradmill.
all those are standard modern wow design.
No, they're not. Have you even PLAYED modern WoW recently? Half of the things you listed don't exist.
screw heirlooms and new talent trees.
Heirlooms were fine back when they didn't exist for every f**king slot... I'm ashamed to admit that I was one of those stupid n00bs begging for heirloom pants and shields during late Cat and early MoP. Now I realize that every new heirloom made hundreds of quest rewards and dungeon boss drops irrelevant, which in turn sucked a lot of the fun out of questing and spamming dungeons.
I have a slight preference for the old talent trees but I didn't lose my shit over the new system. I was much more bothered by the removal of the relic slot.
TBC came too fast, not enough people cleared Naxx and it was hasted decision. Greens and blues in 65-70 range were better than Naxx non-set gear. But Blizzard was at its peak and decided to capitalize on popularity, Who wouldn't?
Fact is once 10+ guilds per server get KT down and have Naxx on the farm for a month or two if there is no, people will start dropping out unless there is an idea for continuation. Subjectively no matter how much I like original classic, I like the idea of 1.14 or how you call it Classic+
First, people love PVP, and it should be the way to actually use hard-earned gear, one of the most loveable things of TBC is the arena and there will be a whole new experience of original WoW to add arena on top of the Classic experience.
On the other hand, not everyone is ready to get Naxx gear, there should be few content additions that will help people catch up but not trivialize previous content. Since Atiesh is made in Naxx and with extended server life more people will have it Kara is probably the best thing. Since raids are limited in vanilla to 20 and 40, Kara would be awesome 20 man. Another very enjoyable raid tuned for fast clearing and mount rewards was Zul Aman, it would be nice to "discover" new portal behind Troll zone in North EPL to it
Best way to add more 5 man content is trough Caverns of Time in Tanaris. I remember that everyone loved those instances.
TL:DR: 1.14
PVP - Arena (no resilience gear)
PVE
- 2x 20 mans Karazhan & Zul Aman (gear equal to non-set pieces of Naxx)
- 5 mans Caverns of Time (gear equal to BWL/AQ40)
For other stuff, not sure, but I would love to limit it to Azeroth only without changing anything for players not in endgame, this gives options for:
- Azshara BG
- Uldum Raid
- Grim Batol
- Archimonde Raid (old Hyjal Caverns of time)