Yes there are some obvious problems with Layering when it comes to resources, rares etc. And it will still not fix the launch starting problem zerg, 3k in a layer is like 500ppl/starting zone still...This would mean massive queues or much smaller layers at the start
I dont like it, but if it goes live I really hope it don't last more then a few weeks
People are being super dramatic over this, I think with a couple of safeguards to reduce abuse of the system it could be fine. People just need to chill and see how it pans out, it's going to be ok guys!
I dont think anyone here is proposing this is the doom of Classic or being overly dramatic... Its fairly obvious that launch will be an issue and that SOMETHING has to be done... My concern is that it (layering) simply isnt the best solution for the problem.
Layering can and will be used and abused by players. It impacts more than just the starting zones. It has a far greater impact on the game than dynamic respawns do. My only opposition to dynamic respawns is that mobs are respawning at an increased rate based on the amounts of players in the area... This can cause unpreventable deaths due to overcrowded mob density and can be used to farm gold/xp quicker... Layering however separates a server into gigantic shards... Meaning you have multiple shards (or layers - this term can and should be used interchangeably) of ungoro allowing a server to farm twice as much leather without experiencing the same competition... Twice as many tidal shards dropping from a rare mob... And this is only if your server has two layers. Remember, this shard/layer is WORLDWIDE. Meaning that if my server has 4000 players, and I am in the second shard, I am presumably with 1000 other players... Now lets assume I level ahead of the pack (or am significantly behind the pack) the world will be VERY empty. Unlike sharding which is confined to small pockets layering is actually worldwide... Which in my opinion, will make the world feel even more separate and isolated for those who find themselves on a low population layer.
An example of how layering can/will work is in retail... You go to a rare spawn or quest location. If the mob isnt there you join a group finder and request an invite... Without the group system (which may be added in the form of an addon) you can still cycle through your friends list or guild for invites to quickly cycle through layers. This WILL be used as a means to run from pvp engagements. Im not in a favorable fight? A quick invite phases me away. No more being camped in world pvp. This WILL be used to get escort quests and rare spawn tags... Nessingwarys camp is currently being camped by the horde? A quick message in general chat asking if someone has a horde free nessy layer and BAM youre in a new layer and can avoid pvp. This has a pretty large implication on the game to be honest. I'm typically not an alarmist, but this will absolutely change how the game is played... What about the aoe mage who finds a fairly secluded grind spot??? Do a full pull, aoe it all down, and grab a friend invite to immediately reset the mobs by jumping to another layer. You can start to see how this will have a dramatic impact on the game. The simple truth is that we already have a solution to launch... Dynamic respawns. Dynamic respawns are not a great solution, but compared to layering the world, they seem like the obvious choice.
It will be helpful to have some more clarity around how layering is going to be implemented. How will the algorithm determine the number of players per layer as new players log off and on, and as the days and weeks go by? What are the limits around how often one can transition to different layers when receiving invites to groups, and in order to prevent farming of limited resources across multiple layers? Will the 3001st player be alone in a new layer, or will the layers be merged and split dynamically from time to time to more evenly distribute layer populations?
Temporary sharding or layering are both imperfect solutions to a problem that there is no perfect solution for. However, in my personal opinion, both sharding and layering, if temporary, are superior solutions to playing Vanilla on private servers, superior to having a launch experience that involves hundreds of people fighting for one mob, and superior to increasing the number of realms or adding queues to deal with the initial volume only to later end up with underpopulated servers that require merging or transfers as populations dwindle.
I will give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt. They will take my money and I will deal with the Phase 1 layering.
I dont think anyone here is proposing this is the doom of Classic or being overly dramatic...
Yep. This breaks it for me. Every zone is effectively sharded. I won't be playing classic if this goes live
The simple truth is that we already have a solution to launch... Dynamic respawns. Dynamic respawns are not a great solution, but compared to layering the world, they seem like the obvious choice.
I don't think dynamic respawns is the best solution, especially since I think this will have just as dramatic, if not more dramatic impact on the economy. Especially players who get ahead of the curve, they can really take advantage of dynamic respawns to abuse gold farming or similar. You have to remember that there is probably only going to be 2-3 layers for your continent at peak times, so it's not like you can just hop about willy nilly between 30 phases like you can in retail with their bullshit sharding. I think Blizzard will be testing it during all 3 stress tests and finding ways to limit the exploitation and have safeguards in place. Again, I think people need to just take a step back - there is over 3 months before this is being implemented at launch, they have plenty of time to fine tune and provide specifics on how it will work.
I don't think dynamic respawns is the best solution, especially since I think this will have just as dramatic, if not more dramatic impact on the economy. Especially players who get ahead of the curve, they can really take advantage of dynamic respawns to abuse gold farming or similar. You have to remember that there is probably only going to be 2-3 layers for your continent at peak times, so it's not like you can just hop about willy nilly between 30 phases like you can in retail with their bullshit sharding. I think Blizzard will be testing it during all 3 stress tests and finding ways to limit the exploitation and have safeguards in place. Again, I think people need to just take a step back - there is over 3 months before this is being implemented at launch, they have plenty of time to fine tune and provide specifics on how it will work.
How? Instead of mobs increasing respawn at a rate appropriate to the players around them, we will be seeing full fledged duplicates of the world... If I am a devilsaur farming team of 5 players, I could simultaneously farm 2-3 Ungoro Craters at the same time... If I am a frost mage farming a secluded pack of mobs solo, I can do a run, get an invite to phase hop and immediately reset the mobs... The implications layering has are INSANE. They are especially insane if speedrunners can find a way to consistently manipulate the layer, which based on what we know, doesnt sound hard (a simple group invite). In terms of economy, layering is definitively more impactful than dynamic respawns... By a fairly wide margin.
"Especially players who get ahead of the curve, they can really take advantage of dynamic respawns"... Dynamic respawns increase the spawn rate based on the players in a given cell... Players who are ahead of the curve arent benefiting from dynamic respawns. This is why it is referred to as "dynamic". The respawn value is altered to accommodate the player populace in a given cell. If you are ahead of all the other players or alone in a low populated cell, the spawn rate of mobs is decreased to match the populace of that cell.
"2-3 layers for your continent at peak times, so it's not like you can just hop about willy nilly between 30 phases like you can in retail with their bullshit sharding." You only need two layers for it to count. Lets assume you are grinding water elementals at 0200hrs. No one else is there. The only thing limiting your ability to farm elementals is their respawn time... Being that youre the only one in the field, you arent benefiting from dynamic respawns HOWEVER, with layering, you can just get friends or guildies just send invites to shift through the layers each time you do a lap. In this circumstance you have mobs up 100% of the time instead of having prolonged periods of downtime waiting for respawns. Now you are not limited by respawns at all, rather your kill speed.
"Again, I think people need to just take a step back - there is over 3 months before this is being implemented." This was just announced and were all just talking about Classic. If there is any time to voice our discontent for a proposed change, its during its announcement rather than claiming hindsight after the fact. To be completely honest, Blizzard could take a dump in a paper bag and write "Clazzik" on the front of it with a permanent marker, and I'd be preordering the collectors edition hahahaha... Due to the announcement of layering, its worth talking about.
I've played retail with sharding for years and still do. I've played private on several major servers with dynamic respawns and still do. As someone who has experience both, they both have major drawbacks but layering, as it has been proposed is actually the worst option of the three in my opinion.
How many layers are you expecting, with all this shifting in and out with your buddies to get rare spawns? With three layers each with 3,000 players, do you really think you will be able to exploit it as easily as you think? It's not like phasing or sharding where you can just create bunches of phases depending on how many people are in that local area and cross realms and all sorts of bullshit. You don't think that there will be competition for devilsaurs with 3,000 players in 3 different layers? Do you really expect to have some magical empty layers that only your friends are in?
I don't know dude, I think this 'problem' is being blown way out of proportion. I completely agree that the issue needs to be discussed and sorted out and I have mentioned that previously. There is time to sort this out (again, like I mentioned previously). I am not saying "shut up and just wait" I'm saying "chill, we have time to find out details and see what safeguards/loopholes are in the system".
How many layers are you expecting, with all this shifting in and out with your buddies to get rare spawns? With three layers each with 3,000 players, do you really think you will be able to exploit it as easily as you think? It's not like phasing or sharding where you can just create bunches of phases depending on how many people are in that local area and cross realms and all sorts of bullshit. You don't think that there will be competition for devilsaurs with 3,000 players in 3 different layers? Do you really expect to have some magical empty layers that only your friends are in?
Yes. This right here. I can see there being maybe 2-3 layers per realm if 3K is the cap per? Hardly a resource farm fest. I don't think they're going for super high levels of populations that will require half a dozen or more layers across realms. Besides, the Devilsaur Mafia was a thing in Vanilla, so it's not like you can't have groups of players trying to monopolize resources even if we toss layer mechanics out the window. Some people are into the farming aspect of the game, and they will indeed try to take advantage of this to make an extra buck, but I don't think an additional layer or two will massively impact their fortunes such that we'll have a bunch of little Jeff Bezos' of Azeroth running around and destroying the economy of Classic.
Saying you won't play WoW classic because of layering for the first phase is like saying you won't have sex because you have to wear a condom for the first 2 minutes.
Listening to the devs talk about how it works and doing research on it makes a lot of sense and is quite the improvement to sharding. If you think Blizzard is going to let people abuse/exploit this in some way without punishment you are mistaken. It's not like they will release this game and just walk away. They will be watching everything. Anyone who is leveling abnormally fast will be watched, believe that.
This is still going to be a fantastic game. Don't let those fools over on the Blizzard forums spin you into a hysteria over speculation.
How many layers are you expecting, with all this shifting in and out with your buddies to get rare spawns? With three layers each with 3,000 players, do you really think you will be able to exploit it as easily as you think?
Yes. I think it will be very easy. In a guild of 50-100 people, as all guilds will boast massive player counts during the boom of players on launch, with access to general chat (when ALL 3k players are confined to about 4-5 zones so youre always talking to 1/4 of the playerbase) and then your friends list - I think it will be VERY very very... tremendously easy to manipulate. Based on what theyve told us, its as easy as an invite to manipulate and the reward is well worth the effort.
"It's not like phasing or sharding where you can just create bunches of phases depending on how many people are in that local area" Its actually easier. because once you are in a lower pop phase you have consistently lower competition. The layer isnt fixed to a specific zone, oh no, youre entire experience is on that phase at lower competition and if it serves you, you will be able to change that layer with the click of a button so you also get the advantage of shifting phases only you are in full control of those shifts.
"You don't think that there will be competition for devilsaurs with 3,000 players in 3 different layers?" I think there will be less competition in a layer containing 3k players, than in a world with 12k with dynamic respawns... A lot less. Consider You are in the first batch of 60's. Lets say the top 10% of levelers? With dynamic respawns there are about 300 people at 60... not all of them in Ungoro and not a lot of competition for devilsaurs on the first 2 weeks. With layers... Those same 10% of players now have have access to several layers ALL containing devilsaurs. In this circumstance, not enough players would be in Ungoro to have anywhere near the devilsaur spawns these guys are getting. That only affects the top 10% though right? Nope. This will determine your devilsaur prices for months to come. Just one of many examples where layering will have a tremendous impact compared to dynamic respawns.
"I don't know dude, I think this 'problem' is being blown way out of proportion." Again, we're just talking here. No one is signing a petition to burn down Classic or starting a riot... Were just talking. Its okay to have different opinions... Thats why I'm here! Talking to myself about Classic got pretty stale.
"There is time to sort this out" I think they are going with layering whether we like it or not. Layering is a solution to a problem that needs to be addressed. The point here is just to have a casual discussion about the announcement of layering. Not condemning Blizzard and not starting fires in the streets.
"chill, we have time to find out details and see what safeguards/loopholes are in the system" The system is pretty straightforward. Each layer contains 3k players. Players who invite others bring them into their layer. Players can change layers as often as they want to.. Its a pretty simple solution to the problem. One of 4 potential solutions as far as I see it...
Solution 1: Cap servers at 3-4k... Obviosuly a bad idea for Classic launch with a ton of temporary tourists.
Solution 2: Sharding (temporarily as originally proposed AND confined to starting zones) My favorite option as we have not seen how this compares to dynamic respawns.
Solution 3: Dynamic respawns. Huge drawbacks but also capable of allowing upwards of 12k players to participate on one server without any phasing/layering.
Solution 4: Layering
Of the options that have been proposed im a strong proponent of dynamic respawns (tried, tested and true) and the potential of sharding temporarily and only in the intial start zones, as was originally proposed. Layering seems like a very awful alternative to what options we currently have.
Honestly, I think it will be ok. But like you say, we're just talking because otherwise we'd just argue with ourselves!
:lol:
You guys seem to misunderstand.
I understand something is going to be needed in the first little bit to deal with the masses.
I just do not think effectively sharding the ENTIRE WORLD is the solution.
It is rife with the potential for abuse and exploitation.
I would be fine with them sharding 1 to 10. Maybe up to 20 if need be, but blizzard themselves admitted 90% of characters made in vanilla never made it past level 10.
Food for thought.
You going to play Classic still Instinctz, or is layering a deal breaker? That would be a shame having had to wait 14 years for Classic! :surprised:
I figure it will be in game for max 2 months. I expect the bulk of the lifespan of classic WoW to be 2.5 years. 2.5 years is 30 months. That means that only 6.66% of your playtime is potentially impacted by layering. I think you should try to wait it out and see if you can make it through Phase 1, you wouldn't want to miss out on Classic launch and then playing through it with everyone because of something we only know minor details about!
Just saw this one posted to Classic WoW subreddit.
I think people are overreacting over the fact that layering will be implemented. Servers with long-term healthy populations are needed, and on launch the swarm of people demands a certain type of isolation. This solves both imo.
The communication from Blizzard was not clear and precise enough, I agree but this system sounds much better than sharding.
You will never be able to meet a player from another server (realm) and never see them again.
Guildmates are preferred to be put on the same layer. Friends that you play with are likely to be in the same guild as you.
If you group up with someone outside your layer, you will be transferred to that layer permanently until you group up with another player who is outside your layer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/bows9y/sharding_versus_layering/
The problem with that image is that it confuses sharding with cross-realm, which are two entirely separate things. Sharding separates players when there's too many in a zone. Cross-realm puts players together when there isn't enough. They serve the exact opposite purpose. Cross-realm appears like sharding, which is why people often confuse the two.
That's why Nicholaes on reddit created a more accurate image in response.
It still makes some assumptions, but the general gist of it is there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/bp1g0p/sharding_vs_layering_fixed/
Except thats wrong. With sharding you could have much more then the 3k cap. Shard the 1 to 20 zones to deal with the tourists and it would do just what layering wants to do.
WITHOUT AFFECTING WORLD PVP.
WITHOUT AFFECTING RARE RESOURCES.
Sharding would give you the same benefits as layering.
WITHOUT affecting high level zones.
Except thats wrong. With sharding you could have much more then the 3k cap. Shard the 1 to 20 zones to deal with the tourists and it would do just what layering wants to do.
I agree. Before we got the news about layering, that's what I thought Blizzard would use sharding for: to have higher than normal population caps as a temporary measure. But they opted for layering instead.
We may appeal to our feelings and opinions all we want, but Blizzard does have the statistics, and statistics don't care about how we feel, or what we think - it only shows the truth. If I remember correctly, the statistics were that 70% of players don't make it past level 10. Whether we have sharding or layering, it might not make much of a difference; the population will be high at the start, but drop significantly by the end of the starting zones. There might be only one or two layers per server by the end of the first month.
Disgusting. This is worse than sharding. No one should be happy about this. Part of the fun of playing at release is seeing tons and tons of people everywhere having fun.
Disgusting. This is worse than sharding. No one should be happy about this. Part of the fun of playing at release is seeing tons and tons of people everywhere having fun.
Can you elaborate more on how is layering worse than sharding? I was under impression that it is actually better solution.
Also I am a guy who really doesnt see anything good on overcrowded starting zones where you are unable to complete pretty much anything.
Disgusting. This is worse than sharding. No one should be happy about this. Part of the fun of playing at release is seeing tons and tons of people everywhere having fun.
Can you elaborate more on how is layering worse than sharding? I was under impression that it is actually better solution.
Also I am a guy who really doesnt see anything good on overcrowded starting zones where you are unable to complete pretty much anything.
Because the plan was to shard low level zones only which would not impact world PvP or the rarity of stuff like black lotus and thorium.
Instead, we are going to shard every zone instead.
Instinctz, maybe just hold off until phase 2 to start playing? It seems like you won't enjoy it even one tiny bit, and everyone will be exploiting constantly, so probably better you wait.
:cool: