Hello Caperfin!
Amazing guide; I've read this over a few times and come back often in my theorycrafting for my own build, where I want to find a balance between tanking, PvP and DPS (Totem Twisting, Nightfall bot, probably).
I am wondering about the importance of the talent Toughness, specifically versus Weapon Mastery.
I imagine that Weapon Mastery is quite good for PvP, and will help with threat generation during tanking, but I would be forgoing Toughness for this, which means lowering my EHP.
Is Toughness' mitigation percentage substancial overall?
I am playing around with a few builds right now, so I don't have just one to link for context, but the essence of my dilemma is written above.
Thank you for the marvelous guide!
Hello Caperfin!
Amazing guide; I've read this over a few times and come back often in my theorycrafting for my own build, where I want to find a balance between tanking, PvP and DPS (Totem Twisting, Nightfall bot, probably).
I am wondering about the importance of the talent Toughness, specifically versus Weapon Mastery.
I imagine that Weapon Mastery is quite good for PvP, and will help with threat generation during tanking, but I would be forgoing Toughness for this, which means lowering my EHP.
Is Toughness' mitigation percentage substancial overall?
I am playing around with a few builds right now, so I don't have just one to link for context, but the essence of my dilemma is written above.
Thank you for the marvelous guide!
When you need to compromise but have your sights set on tanking and PvP, Toughness > Weapon Mastery.
Weapon Mastery is mainly important for DPSing since it's a 10% damage increase to your white hits, which is all you'd really be using in a raid setting. For holding aggro, white hits could make up anywhere from 20-50% of your threat generation depending on how much earth shocking you're doing (the far end of that spectrum being literally none), which means a 2-5% increase overall for 5 talent points. You'd get more bang for your buck with a really strong weapon from BWL and later when the weapon damage starts to outweigh the invisible additive from Rockbiter, but it's still not enough to warrant losing all that extra armor. The extra mitigation from Toughness is a huge deal considering survivability is your main weakness relative to other tanking classes.
PvP Enhance is kind of a meme, and when you're getting those triple Windfury crits, your target is dead anyway so that extra 10% would be overkill. Yeah you're not always getting Windfury procs, but your basic melee swing feels like it might as well be doing zero damage so you won't ever notice that teensy increase.
I am slowly updating the guide to reflect Classic. If there is anything I forgot or something doesn't stack, scale, etc... please let me know.
Woohoo, Thanks Caperfin, tell us when complete!
Which parts have to be changed?
Woohoo, Thanks Caperfin, tell us when complete!
Which parts have to be changed?
I need to confirm the following:
if https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12641/invulnerable-mail effect can be clicked off.
The threat generated by Rockbiter at max rank (not as easy as it sounds).
Apparently Dragon Breath Chili will stacks with food buffs, if you eat Chili after?
Debuff priority of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13514 and how much threat it deals?The behaviour behind https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13506/flask-of-petrification . Is like BoP, but can it be clicked off?
The threat caused by the buff: Eye of the storm, Elemental Focus, Lightning Shield, Flurry and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20554/berserking .
The threat caused by the buff https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13937 , https://classic.wowhead.com/item=8956 and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17774 .
The threat caused by https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11564/crystal-ward and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11567/crystal-spire and if it resets swing timer and if spamming it continue to generate threat?
(Phase5) The behaviour of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21946 and the threat caused by its buff.
Behaviour of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=4397/gnomish-cloaking-device (can you drop combat in-between boss combat pulse, if timed properly?)
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20007/mageblood-potion (phase 4)
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13452/elixir-of-the-mongoose
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12460/juju-might
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13512/flask-of-supreme-power
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17774/mark-of-the-chosen
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13454/greater-arcane-elixir
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10306
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13445/elixir-of-superior-defense
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20079/spirit-of-zanza (phase 4)
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=26119/stormcaller-spelldamage-bonus (Setbonus-phase 5)
I can help with some of those from testing back in vanilla:
Vanish wipes threat and has no resist chance.
Flask of Petrification prevents movement, attacking, and spell casting - but you become immune to damage. It does not wipe threat, but you cannot have aggro unless there are no other targets on the threat table or you have the enemy taunted. Enemies will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table.
Limited Invulnerability Potion works like Blessing of Protection - enemies which deal physical damage will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table. It does not modify or reset your threat or threat generation, you will continue to generate threat while under the effect, and can potentially gain aggro once the effect ends if this puts you in 1st with 110% or 130% of whoever has aggro.
I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.
I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.
I don't think Shaman can tank progression fights in raids. I think maybe prot paladin can do some progression stuff but not well. Like you say, it would still be interesting to see some videos of attempts etc.
I like the idea of shaman tanks. But they were unfortunately just not designed to tank raids. They were designed as a backup/emergency tank in certain dungeon situations. They weren't intended to soak crushing blows from patchwerk. Caster tanks wearing mail are a cool concept, but they are missing key ingredients. They suffer from the hybrid tax. Druids are good at healing and tanking. Shamans are good at healing, and elemental PvP. Paladins are good at healing.... prot has some utility in tanking dungeons, but are pretty harshly hybrid taxed.
I don't think Shaman can tank progression fights in raids. I think maybe prot paladin can do some progression stuff but not well. Like you say, it would still be interesting to see some videos of attempts etc.
I like the idea of shaman tanks. But they were unfortunately just not designed to tank raids. They were designed as a backup/emergency tank in certain dungeon situations. They weren't intended to soak crushing blows from patchwerk. Caster tanks wearing mail are a cool concept, but they are missing key ingredients. They suffer from the hybrid tax. Druids are good at healing and tanking. Shamans are good at healing, and elemental PvP. Paladins are good at healing.... prot has some utility in tanking dungeons, but are pretty harshly hybrid taxed.
I agree. And if that is the case, they are not viable as tanks so conversations about enhance tanking are silly. Because technically anything can tank with the right amount of heals and gear. People will just spam them to death while they rock every consume in the game... This doesnt make it viable.
When considering if something is viable, we should ask ourselves if these things are worth doing.
When considering if something is viable, we should ask ourselves if these things are worth doing.
Worth doing is subjective. People do get enjoyment out of a mage tanking an encounter, because it's "breaking the rules". It's certainly not optimal, and obviously if it 'works' you could call it viable, but in that case nearly anything is viable.
I won't stop anyone from trying these things - but they certainly aren't going to become mainstream, optimal, or overly viable to the normal player. They will provide enjoyment and engagement from a part of the community, so it is what it is I guess.
Worth doing is subjective... or overly viable to the normal player.
I get what youre saying, but this is where conversations become unproductive when discussing what is or isnt viable. "Overly viable"? Being viable should not be a fluid state that is left to interpretation. It is either viable, can work in progression and thus is worth doing or it is not viable. Youre entirely right that this is subjective, which is why so many guys play as sub optimal builds and nerf their teams performance to enhance their own personal experience through selfish play.
All content can be downed with 39 players and thus everything could be considered viable by definition, but I dont think that is realistic or applicable within the context of determining if a specific spec should be brought into a team.
I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.
They're viable as an OT who drops totems, and while MTing is certainly possible (the line between OT and MT is often blurred in MC), it's really not a great idea for most bosses. I can give you a real-ass take on how it pans out on any fight BWL or lower.
They're viable as an OT who drops totems, and while MTing is certainly possible (the line between OT and MT is often blurred in MC), it's really not a great idea for most bosses. I can give you a real-ass take on how it pans out on any fight BWL or lower.
I want to see this done - during progression. Even if it is possible... Why? Why gear and bring someone who is only capable of situationally offtanking? Thats dumb.
They're viable as an OT who drops totems, and while MTing is certainly possible (the line between OT and MT is often blurred in MC), it's really not a great idea for most bosses. I can give you a real-ass take on how it pans out on any fight BWL or lower.
I want to see this done - during progression. Even if it is possible... Why? Why gear and bring someone who is only capable of situationally offtanking? Thats dumb.
Full time OT (think second or third tank). High burst threat on the first mob you kill helps smooth out fights in early endgame, and it's pretty easy to snag stray trash when one of your main threat generators has a 20 yard range. They can do MC in pre-raid BiS and they're not exactly stealing gear meant for other classes.
Great FR tanking as well; being able to gear around your own fire res totem makes it pretty easy to cap out without gimping yourself too hard, plus you got a 10% fire/frost/nature reduction talent and a spell redirect on a short cooldown.
Casual/Semi-casual guilds are also just happy to field more Shammies period. Not saying it's optimal, but it can be and has been done. It'll be a lot easier to do on Classic too considering how much less everything hurts compared to private servers.
Only video I have is the Vael one I linked earlier in the thread.
Only video I have is the Vael one I linked earlier in the thread.
Yeah, I'd be super interested in seeing it used during progression to see if its viable or not.
Only video I have is the Vael one I linked earlier in the thread.
Yeah, I'd be super interested in seeing it used during progression to see if its viable or not.
I would mostly just be worried if I had to tank Golemagg as his earthquaking would give me a goddamn heart attack.
Magmadar could also be a bit dicey. I mean it's the kind of fight where everything generally goes fine but I'm actually sweating profusely at the thought of him being enraged for slightly too long.
Grabbing aggro back after a Shazzrah blink could get mana-intensive; the constant resets mean you can't frontload your threat in a huge burst and spend time regenerating, so you might need an innervate.
Everything else is pretty easy to tank because it's MC. I'd love to try and demonstrate that if I can make room in my schedule to raid this time around, because I know that my anecdotal experience doesn't amount to all that much. It's not something I think could become a new meta or anything lofty like that, but I feel that a Shaman tank's success serves to deconstruct the conventional wisdom of raid tanking and kinda naturally lends itself to the train of thought that brought us DW fury tanks. Warriors also really like not competing with you for loot.
I can help with some of those from testing back in vanilla:
Vanish wipes threat and has no resist chance.
Flask of Petrification prevents movement, attacking, and spell casting - but you become immune to damage. It does not wipe threat, but you cannot have aggro unless there are no other targets on the threat table or you have the enemy taunted. Enemies will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table.
Limited Invulnerability Potion works like Blessing of Protection - enemies which deal physical damage will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table. It does not modify or reset your threat or threat generation, you will continue to generate threat while under the effect, and can potentially gain aggro once the effect ends if this puts you in 1st with 110% or 130% of whoever has aggro.
I very much appreciate your help :) Do you know if the Petri buff can be clicked off?
but I feel that a Shaman tank's success serves to deconstruct the conventional wisdom of raid tanking and kinda naturally lends itself to the train of thought that brought us DW fury tanks. Warriors also really like not competing with you for loot.
Yes, hopefully with enough people joining the fray and contributing we can someday reach noticeable old remnants that we saw from fury tank warriors back in the testing days. Classic is turning out to be much more approachable and smoother than pservers. Just recently a Shaman Tank on Faerlina, offtanked all of MC.
Hi, great job putting this comprehensive guide together.
I'm just a newbie when it comes to wow classic so not everything was easy to understand for me.
Although i'm bold enough to start a shamy alt that can tank dungeons.
I have no aspiration of tanking raids so i got a good feeling not everything is mandatory for dungeon tanking what you listed.
My aim is to do the dungeon runs with pug not only with friends. So would be great to have a dungeon leveling section with talent progression, with stat priorities.
When i read the talent sections it didnt make sense to me to have 5percent more mana and not to have the shield spec when admittedly the greatest weakness of the class is the dam reduction.
Daidalos Dungeon tanking as a Shaman is very approachable, no reason to worry at all. You should not have any issues even considering this is your first time with an MMO. Right now, a bunch of Shaman Tanks are wielding 2handers and tanking dungeons...
Shamans don't block very often. Shield spec only becomes relevant in Naxx (very niche). Any other time the threat generated by the extra mana from spells is more important. Threat generation is a much more important achievement/goal than Mitigation.
If you have any other questions, feel free to let me know.