WoTF doesnt beat hardiness because it is an on-use. That logic is silly.
It's not silly when you are a mage and can blink out of stuns. See the bigger picture. Most valuable is subjective to who is using it. As a mage, if I am close enough to get war-stomped I deserve to die lol. I can agree that there are many ways to get stunned but I have found, through many years of personal experience, that WotF has been more valuable.
Also think of it from an offensive point of view where you use charge to close distance only to be feared a mile away and kited.
Which racial will serve you best in MOST cases and which racial will provide the highest value in MOST cases.
I mean, you said it yourself. In MOST cases I don't have to worry about stuns so WotF provides the highest value in MOST cases.
Stompy stompy Tauren :) I love having the stun as a Druid, as it helps me lock down players/NPCs around me to get off a Regrowth/Rejuv to help survivability. Like Cletus mentioned, different strokes for different folks. Or at least, each racial has it's situation.
I'm a horde Druid, I have War Stomp.
WoTF doesnt beat hardiness because it is an on-use. That logic is silly.
It's not silly when you are a mage and can blink out of stuns.
Mages cant be orcs.
See the bigger picture. Most valuable is subjective to who is using it. As a mage, if I am close enough to get war-stomped I deserve to die lol. I can agree that there are many ways to get stunned but I have found, through many years of personal experience, that WotF has been more valuable.
Hardiness has more value because there are more stuns. The classes that use fears still rely more on stuns, except for warlock. Hardiness provides more value in more circumstances and thus, is more valuable. The reasons why your years of experience would lead you to believe that WoTF is better could be for a variety of reasons... Perhaps you played Undead more than Orc? Perhaps you have primarily played horde so you arent aware of the impact of playing against hardiness? Or perhaps the onuse makes the validity of WoTF more apparent to you. Your confirmation bias will lead you to make note of events rather than non-events. Orc resists are often not noticed by players who are less aware, despite their unmatched impact.
Also think of it from an offensive point of view where you use charge to close distance only to be feared a mile away and kited.
If this comment is designed to make a case for WoTF for a warrior, you're insane. Warriors have a TON of answers to fears. Playing a warrior as undead may be the worst class/race combo possible from a min/max perspective.
I mean, you said it yourself. In MOST cases I don't have to worry about stuns so WotF provides the highest value in MOST cases.
Huh? There are more stuns in the game than fears. You will be stunned more than you will be feared. 30% stun resistance is definitively better than WoTF. By a wide margin... Very wide. About 9% of alliance players will be warlocks. WoTF gives you an advantage against 9% of players as a horde member. The other 91% of fights hardiness would have been better.
I mean, you said it yourself. In MOST cases I don't have to worry about stuns so WotF provides the highest value in MOST cases.
Huh? There are more stuns in the game than fears. You will be stunned more than you will be feared. 30% stun resistance is definitively better than WoTF. By a wide margin... Very wide.
I can tell by your tone that you are confused. Just because there are more stuns in the game doesn't mean that I will be stunned more often. Like I mentioned earlier, mages can blink out of stun and that's if someone gets close enough to stun me.
This is the part where I revert back to your very own comment that I highlighted earlier. In most cases I will be more worried about fear. This, in the most simplistic way that I can express, means that WotF is more valuable to me.
I can tell by your tone that you are confused. Just because there are more stuns in the game doesn't mean that I will be stunned more often.
Thats precisely what it means. You will experience more stuns than you will fears.
Like I mentioned earlier, mages can blink out of stun and that's if someone gets close enough to stun me.
Blink the charge, get the intercept. Blink the cheapshot, get the gouge. Players arent confined to one stun. Its great that you have an answer for a stun. You will need it, because there are a lot of them. Mages cant be Orcs so im not sure where this conversation is going... If they could be Orcs, it would still be better, but they cant, so this is a senseless debate.
This is the part where I revert back to your very own comment that I highlighted earlier. In most cases I will be more worried about fear. This, in the most simplistic way that I can express, means that WotF is more valuable to me.
No. You will experience more stuns than fears. Hardiness would provide higher value. That isnt an option though because youre a mage. Mages cant be orcs.
Though my biggest argument against a mage going Undead would be https://vanillawowdb.com/?item=18850 Your trinket removes fears. Again, this argument is very silly because unfortunately for you, you cant go Orc mage. Would be super overpowered if you could though!
edit: spelling
Inb4 Hardiness
:lol:
Inb4 Hardiness
:lol:
He seen it coming! He knew what was about to happen... I was wriggling my hands in anticipation. This is quite literally my favorite Classic wow debate topic.
No. You will experience more stuns than fears. Hardiness would provide higher value. That isnt an option though because youre a mage. Mages can be orcs.
You do remember that Hardiness doesn't guarantee that you will resist a stun, right?
Blink the charge, get the intercept. Blink the cheapshot, get the gouge. Players arent confined to one stun. Its great that you have an answer for a stun. You will need it, because there are a lot of them.
Intercept gets an ice block and then a frost nova and now you are frozen and eating frostbolts.
A mages can't be orcs. I understood this the first time you brought it up. Understand this: Cats can't be fish and vice versa. Yet both live on earth. One explains that breathing air is more valuable while the other makes the case for pushing water past its gills. Cat dies if it's forced to breathe water, fish dies if it's forced to breathe air. Which is more valuable, water or air?
You do remember that Hardiness doesn't guarantee that you will resist a stun, right?
Correct, its a 30% with no internal cooldown. Cheap shot, gouge, mace specialization, kidney shot... Vanish and get all those again... Tidal charm... grenade... Over the course of a 1-2 min engagement with a rogue you'll face upwards of a dozen stuns, most of which he will need to best you (especially as a mage). The rogue vs mage matchup may actually be the most compelling matchup in the game. If you had hardiness though, it would be pretty lame.
I use rogue as an example here, but we could do the same with warrior... Charge(each time he drops combat - during your iceblock etc), intercept every 30 secs, mace spec, unstoppable force (most warriors will be wielding this), tidal charm, concus, grenades... They have 1 fear on a 2 min cd? They will dump about 8-12 stuns on you before you feel that fear. Then the fear is out for another 2 mins.
Understand this: Cats can't be fish and vice versa. Yet both live on earth. One explains that breathing air is more valuable while the other makes the case for pushing water past its gills. Cat dies if it's forced to breathe water, fish dies if it's forced to breathe air. Which is more valuable, water or air?
I'm just gonna leave this alone so we don't deviate too far from the conversation.
Hardiness is the highest value pvp ability in the game. You can make a hypothetical scenario where other racials will outvalue hardiness. Over the course of playing your character for hundreds of hours, hardiness will serve you better the majority of the time. If mages could be Orcs, knowledgeable pvpers seeking to min/max would play as orcs. If your pvp trinket didnt have an answer for fear, I could see someone making a case for undead mages though. Again, mages cant be orcs though.
I see the argument on both sides of the coin, because I have extensive experience with both.
I played UD priest hard core PVE style. Having the fear breaker in PVE was huge, and situationally helpful (especially when dueling Cletus on his rogue) WoTF was massive for me until I got the gladiator medallion, then it was a force multiplier because my trinket got me out of stun. So, situational, but still useful.
Now onto orc, I played an Orc Warrior hardcore PVP (LTG) alongside Cletus' mage. Hardiness and the blood fury racial came into account. I had a fear break built into my abilities from Zerker rage so I could mitigate that and I employed the hardiness exactly how it was meant to be; a passive security blanket.
So I have extensively benefitted from both and I think our arguments here can be better categorized. Best "on use" racial and best "passive racial" could and should be taken into account.
The best part about on use, is it is there precisely when you need it to be. *obviously not if on CD* and the worst part about a passive is you wont know when and where it kicks in. Which is what I believe I am interpreting from Cletus' reasoning.
I am a huge fan of both and honestly really wanted to make an Orc Priest in Classic to stack stun resistances, but it just isnt a thing. Lol. Would have been a godly PVP machine, blending both of my original characters strengths under 1 murderer.
You both have valid points and I believe it has generated a lot of worthwhile discussion that we can all theory craft off of to tailor them for our own specific needs.
And apologies for no fancy ability hyperlinking, I'm on my phone and havent learned how to do all that fancy stuff yet. Lol
I see the argument on both sides of the coin, because I have extensive experience with both.
I played UD priest hard core PVE style. Having the fear breaker in PVE was huge...
Agreed 100%. If this thread accounted for PVE in the slightest, we would be having a very different conversation. But since were talking strictly PvP, that just doesn't factor in at all. Realistically though, PvE will factor into A LOT of players choices.
So I have extensively benefitted from both and I think our arguments here can be better categorized. Best "on use" racial and best "passive racial" could and should be taken into account.
My argument is a blanket argument for overall best value. Which will serve you better over the course of your PvP experiences on horde. The answer is Orc. The reason why I continued to point out that Cletus could not be a mage and an Orc simultaneously was because his best counter argument to mine, was to propose a scenario that wasn't even possible; playing an orc mage. If the best argument we can muster, is an impossible hypothetical, I think it strengthens the case for the value of hardiness.
The best part about on use, is it is there precisely when you need it to be. *obviously not if on CD* and the worst part about a passive is you wont know when and where it kicks in. Which is what I believe I am interpreting from Cletus' reasoning.
Agreed. The counter argument to that would be that the shear value of hardiness outvalues WoTF consistently, doesnt have an internal cooldown and doesnt use a global cooldown. It is in every essence, better (when compared at a broad level). However, if both racials were equally valuable, and Hardiness was a 100% stun break that was an uncontrolled passive with a 2 min internal cooldown, WoTF would have clear supremacy. That is not the case. When we disregard hypothetical arguments and focus on what is, we can begin to see the value of hardiness.
I am a huge fan of both and honestly really wanted to make an Orc Priest in Classic to stack stun resistances, but it just isnt a thing. Lol. Would have been a godly PVP machine, blending both of my original characters strengths under 1 murderer.
Orc Priest would be insane. Would be aesthetically cool and would have some pretty interesting synergy.
You both have valid points and I believe it has generated a lot of worthwhile discussion that we can all theory craft off of to tailor them for our own specific needs.
These conversations are a blast! Speaking from a min/max perspective doesn't consider your individual preferences. If you prefer undead, what are you doing here??? No need to justify your choices! Play what you want!!! My post was simply to direct a player who is asking a min/max question in the appropriate direction. A lot of misinformation about WoTF continues to get spread, and my aim is to make sure that those who want to min/max, don't make an irreversible and regrettable character creation choice.
Which will serve you better over the course of your PvP experiences on horde. The answer is Orc. The reason why I continued to point out that Cletus could not be a mage and an Orc simultaneously was because his best counter argument to mine, was to propose a scenario that wasn't even possible; playing an orc mage. If the best argument we can muster, is an impossible hypothetical, I think it strengthens the case for the value of hardiness.
Propose a scenario that isn't even possible? Like, being a mage in PvP isn't possible? I'm not suggesting people create Orc mages either, I haven't been this whole time. How dense are you?
Cletus you are talking about how good the racial is for one class, which can't even be orc, while the thread is about overall best racials in the game. At least I said that it is not hard cut orc is always the best even if they easily is the best overall, Mage is one of few cases where orc racials ain't the best but again they can't even pick orc so no real reason to argue against them.
The reasons why your years of experience would lead you to believe that WoTF is better could be for a variety of reasons... Perhaps you played Undead more than Orc? Perhaps you have primarily played horde so you arent aware of the impact of playing against hardiness? Or perhaps the onuse makes the validity of WoTF more apparent to you. Your confirmation bias will lead you to make note of events rather than non-events. Orc resists are often not noticed by players who are less aware, despite their unmatched impact
I've been trying to explain this to a friend for around a month now but they don't acknowledge it, they get into arguments about it with me to this day.
Intercept gets an ice block and then a frost nova and now you are frozen and eating frostbolts.
A mages can't be orcs. I understood this the first time you brought it up. Understand this: Cats can't be fish and vice versa. Yet both live on earth. One explains that breathing air is more valuable while the other makes the case for pushing water past its gills. Cat dies if it's forced to breathe water, fish dies if it's forced to breathe air. Which is more valuable, water or air?
What the hell is this analogy?
I've been trying to explain this to a friend for around a month now but they don't acknowledge it, they get into arguments about it with me to this day.
Yea. I think a big portion of why players get so hungup on WoTF is because it feels good. You have control of the ability and when you push that ability you get feedback. That feedback feels meaningful. You aren't keeping track of how many players you are fighting that DON'T have a fear, nor are you focusing on how many stuns are taking place in contrast to how many fears are. Similarly, most Orcs aren't counting their resists. There is no doubt that WoTF feels like a really powerful ability, and it is in its own right.
What the hell is this analogy?
I left that alone...
I've been trying to explain this to a friend for around a month now but they don't acknowledge it, they get into arguments about it with me to this day.
Yea. I think a big portion of why players get so hungup on WoTF is because it feels good. You have control of the ability and when you push that ability you get feedback. That feedback feels meaningful. You aren't keeping track of how many players you are fighting that DON'T have a fear, nor are you focusing on how many stuns are taking place in contrast to how many fears are. Similarly, most Orcs aren't counting their resists. There is no doubt that WoTF feels like a really powerful ability, and it is in its own right.
Yeah I played on private servers for a lot on Horde (non orc) and never realized how strong Hardiness is until I had to play an Alliance Rogue, it's so good it hurts. I refuse to play Alliance Rogue because of it. You basically lose to everyone who is Orc for no reason other than that they picked Orc.
Yeah I played on private servers for a lot on Horde (non orc) and never realized how strong Hardiness is until I had to play an Alliance Rogue, it's so good it hurts. I refuse to play Alliance Rogue because of it. You basically lose to everyone who is Orc for no reason other than that they picked Orc.
Yeah. Pretty much this ^. If you have two equally skilled players with equal gear and engi etc... Hardiness is an unreal game changer. Its actually broken.
Topic of Discussion: Racial comparison in relation to PVP. - Just my thoughts.
Warning: Wall-O-Text inc...
Edit: Splitting this because it keeps omitting sections around the Paladin's portion.
Part 1 of 2.
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=7744/will-of-the-forsaken 5 second immunity to charm, fear, and sleep, (also removes existing auras) 2-minute CD. VS https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness passive 25% stun resistance.
Both phenomenal abilities, in their own right, and they definitely shine in specific settings. But lets get on with it.
Being an Undead Priest main with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14791/unbreakable-will I will have the best of both worlds, albeit slightly reduced from [url] https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness 's 25%, but I'm ok with that. I would absolutely play an Orc over Undead if I had the option for that as a Priest. (double dipping on the stun resist) Sadly it just isn't an option, can't imagine why... lol This time around I am going to have 1 toon for both PVE and PVP, so there won't be any swapping outside of speccing Healbot to Shadow and back.
There have been very good bits of info throughout this thread and I've enjoyed some old school theorycrafting since finding it. As much as I dug through the Google-Machine this evening, I could not find metrics of testing on Hardiness. Though I did find evidence on the fact that Classic WoW did not have Proc-Per-Minute (PPM) regulation. So a drought was a drought and a proc-spree (remembering WF-swordspec-WF-WF killing spree's, ahh good times...) was just really good luck. But essentially a 1 in 4 chance per RNG interaction is pretty beastly.
Taking away from the "on call" reliability of a stun from an opponent can be a morale killer. They're doing their best to try and set it up for the perfect CC and they get a RESIST ... really changes the momentum on the battlefield. Whereas, the predictability of attacking an Undead and knowing that the first https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=6215/fear isn't going to land allows the enemy to mentally prepare for this and strategize for it.
I fully get the discussion and perspectives provided here and I do have to agree after a bit of my own confirmation through research, https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness is the clear winner here. Due to its unpredictable nature and 2nd/3rd order effects of completely demoralizing and ruining a winning strategy.
Here is my interpretation of how I approach these fights with the stun resist, whether its 15% or 25%; (I think me having the 15% resist as a Priest made https://www.wowhead.com/spell=7744/will-of-the-forsaken feel more useful because I did have some semblance of both.)
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot 5 combo points for a 6 second stun, 20 second CD. A great momentum changer and setup ability that can also increase damage done to the Rogue's target if talented with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14176/improved-kidney-shot . Resisting this changes the Rogues overall approach while also saving you from that improved damage.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1833/cheap-shot 4 second stun, requires stealth. Resisting this changes the nature of the fight from the get-go and could potentially force the Rogue into burning a https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1857/vanish (as if it was going to work anyway, /lawl working as intended) to try and land the follow up https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1833/cheap-shot OR just break contact and re-engage later. "Other than that one fight every five minutes, I'm a free honor kill" -Mute
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=100/charge 1 second stun, 15 second CD. Sometimes getting that initial stun is necessary to land a https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=7373/hamstring , resisting that allows your opponent to get out of range quickly which completely negates your "uptime" and ability to fight.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20252/intercept 3 second stun, 30 second CD, same issues as mentioned for that initial https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=100/charge but could be for your follow up due to an initial resist. Food for thought.
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I was just gonna post this! Regeneration is S+ tier.