Is this open world? Yes. Can you balance the factions? If the answer is no, your idea is flawed and wont work. Its just that simple.

Having a faction imbalance of 100 - 20 is the exact issue here. You have 40-50 of the overpopulated faction running around completing PvE objectives for free honor which destroys the integrity of the game. You have the other 50 or so decimating the 20 underpopulated players and graveyard camping them, which destroys the competitive scene in the game. It wont matter what you intend on doing... The players will play. The players will zerg. Without faction balance, your idea is dead on arrival.

Then how is there constant World PvP on PvP servers? Even if a Frontier has 100 Horde and 20 Alliance, the 100 Horde wouldn't be roaming together. The Alliance groups aren't fighting all the Horde at once. You have tons of groups roaming the entire zone. It's not like all Horde groups would converge on once Alliance group at the same time. I already mentioned how zerging would award basically no honor. This isn't like other Open World PvP MMOs where there are no battlegrounds. Players have alternatives in Classic WoW. This entire Frontier system is designed to incentivize small scale PvPers.

Premade crossrealm battlegrounds don't harm the "integrity of the game"? 5 minutes Arathi Basin PvE stomps over and over?

I agree that uncontested PvE objectives rewarding honor can problematic. It might be necessary for players to earn honor through contested objectives like they do in battlegrounds. Whether it is capturing a location or taking over a keep. The objectives would be points of interest essentially to move players around the zone. There would be no graveyard camping. When you die you respawn and board a boat or zeppelin to enter the frontier. You can enter the frontier from basically anywhere using boats/zeppelins. That is why there is no camping or chokepoints. Which solves a major issue.

Then how is there constant World PvP on PvP servers?

Because this is organic. Players who participate are not doing world PvP as a means to their end, they are doing it because they want to. They may be incentivized to do so in an effort to secure and objective or foothold, but this is not a scripted encounter, this is organic and players are opting to participate. You are trying to capture that same experience, sterilize it, ring ALL the fun out of it, suck the essence of joy out of it, suck all the color out of it and paint in gray, and then force feed it down the playerbases throat, and it will not work. It wont work because it has never worked. Ever.

You are trying to create a poorly thought out emulation of what already exists and works in Classic WoW. The game does not need this.
Premade battlegrounds don't harm the "integrity of the game"? 5 minutes Arathi Basin PvE stomps over and over?

Not to the same extent because even an underpopulated faction can amass 15 players and they are guaranteed that when they DO join the BG, they will start off on an even playing field which is a FAR cry from what you are suggesting. What you are suggesting would quite literally rip communities apart in a very short amount of time.

This idea is broken. Its not good. It is poorly thought out and has been done. It has been done in ways that are superior to your own and has still failed in many MMO's.

Because this is organic. Players who participate are not doing world PvP as a means to their end, they are doing it because they want to. They may be incentivized to do so in an effort to secure and objective or foothold, but this is not a scripted encounter, this is organic and players are opting to participate. You are trying to capture that same experience, sterilize it, ring ALL the fun out of it, suck the essence of joy out of it, suck all the color out of it and paint in gray, and then force feed it down the playerbases throat, and it will not work. It wont work because it has never worked. Ever.

You are trying to create a poorly thought out emulation of what already exists and works in Classic WoW. The game does not need this.

A lot of Classic World PvP involves ganking level 48 players or griefing a flightmaster. Frontiers are about incentivizing level 60 small scale PvP without player griefing. The goal is actually to make World PvP more competitive and structured. That is what competitive players want. That is what keeps PvP relevant in an MMO.

This idea is broken. Its not good. It is poorly thought out and has been done. It has been done in ways that are superior to your own and has still failed in many MMO's.

Really I'd like some examples, because WoW sure isn't one of them I've seen what other MMORPGs have done, and I have addressed many of the issues with them. Assuming there is some absurd faction imbalance like 100 Horde and 20 Alliance, how does that make a Frontier unplayable, if most players are roaming the zone in small groups? You keep saying that players will consistently zerg, eventhough there would be little to no honor reward for doing so. I actually think large scale PvP is fine if the rewards come from fighting over contested Keeps/Castles. These players literally have an alternative to do battleground instead also.

I showed you the map of a Frontier zone, and am not convinced that a faction imbalance in the zone would somehow prevent fair fights from happening. When the underpopulated faction enters the zone with a small group, they would be able to enter the zone from anywhere. The Horde groups would be spread across the whole zone.

Really I'd like some examples

WAR. SWTOR. I could list others, but these are the two that suffered the most from similar design implementations. The idea doesnt work.

Tell me how youre going to balance the factions and im all ears.

please describe how you plan to have an open world environment (truly open to all players) and still maintain a faction balance. This is a requirement for your idea to be viable. I dont care about incentives. Im not interested in your intent. How will you maintain a balanced faction outcome?

kek

there is no faction balance, just arbitrary numbers and MS paint drawings

in for the post farming

Really I'd like some examples

WAR. SWTOR. I could list others, but these are the two that suffered the most from similar design implementations. The idea doesnt work.

Tell me how youre going to balance the factions and im all ears.

Warhammer Online did a million things wrong. I was there. The company that made that game also developed Dark Age of Camelot. One advantage Dark Age of Camelot had was there being 3 factions. So the two underpopulated factions could team up against the bigger faction. As somebody who played Dark Age of Camelot in its heyday, and spent this last year working on a Dark Age of Camelot server, I have some perspective on Open World PvP. The biggest issue by far with Dark Age of Camelot was not the faction imbalances. It was the group oriented nature of the game. The game was not designed for solo/small mans, which is what the majority of players prefer. Another prevailing issue were chokepoints. Factions were often funneled into chokepoints when trying to access other PvP zones. This was eventually changed in Dark Age of Camelot. Players could use boats to enter any part of a frontier zone. However, the group focus of the game was always its downfall. Players don't want to wait around for 7 groupmates to logon or for a zerg to form. They want to just go PvP.

I think we both agree that small scale PvP is vital for World PvP in an MMO. It is so easy to let zergs just destroy it. If you don't basically banish zerging, then you can't have open world pvp. Part of the reason why it works in Classic WoW to a degree, is because most players in contested zones are not looking for fights. They are gathering resources or traveling to instances. The PvP is a side effect of interaction between the two factions.

Here is the reality. Let's say that Western Plaguelands now gave 10x honor in World PvP. The outcome would be obvious. Zergs would rule the zone and camp flight masters. It would be a total disaster. I don't assert that this Frontier idea I have for Classic WoW is foolproof. However, it is worth considering, because of how it differs from the World PvP systems that existed in other MMOs. I used the Wandering Isle as an example of a frontier zone. There would be no choke points or zone-in areas that could be camped, because players could enter the zone from anywhere using Boats/Zeppelins. When an Alliance enters a Frontier zone, the Horde would have no idea where they might be. If there are 20 horde groups roaming the zone and only a few Alliance groups, there is no way to determine where the Alliance groups are entering the zone. They could enter from anywhere. Why would the Horde groups gang up and roam together when only one group would ever receive honor? Players care about honor. If the honor gains are awful for zergs, then they will likely leave. If the Alliance was earning 2-3x as much honor per kill for being underpopulated in a frontier, I am sure that skilled Alliance PvPers would join the Frontier to gank incompetent horde players. Why wouldn't they if the honor reward was that substantial?

please describe how you plan to have an open world environment (truly open to all players) and still maintain a faction balance. This is a requirement for your idea to be viable. I dont care about incentives. Im not interested in your intent. How will you maintain a balanced faction outcome?

kek

there is no faction balance, just arbitrary numbers and MS paint drawings

in for the post farming

Maybe if I draw more lines on this map... That'll do the trick!

please describe how you plan to have an open world environment (truly open to all players) and still maintain a faction balance. This is a requirement for your idea to be viable. I dont care about incentives. Im not interested in your intent. How will you maintain a balanced faction outcome?

kek

there is no faction balance, just arbitrary numbers and MS paint drawings

in for the post farming

Maybe if I draw more lines on this map... That'll do the trick!

It all makes sense now

please describe how you plan to have an open world environment (truly open to all players) and still maintain a faction balance. This is a requirement for your idea to be viable. I dont care about incentives. Im not interested in your intent. How will you maintain a balanced faction outcome?

kek

there is no faction balance, just arbitrary numbers and MS paint drawings

in for the post farming

Maybe if I draw more lines on this map... That'll do the trick!

It all makes sense now

The Blue lines encirlcing the zone are for Alliance Boats dropping players off. The Red lines crossing the middle of the zone represent Horde Zeppelins dropping players off across the zone. I don't know what your lines represent.

The Blue lines encirlcing the zone are for Alliance Boats dropping players off. The Red lines crossing the middle of the zone represent Horde Zeppelins dropping players off across the zone. I don't know what your lines represent.

So you were planning on giving horde mid control at the start of the game with higher access to the entire map? Jesus Christ... Have you actually ever played a video game before? I just imagine the horde mages launching off the zepp with slowfall in all directions immediately grabbing every valuable node while the alliance are slowly waiting to find a spot to jump off, and then swim 10-20 yards before being able to mount... Start every match losing. Sick PvP idea dude.

I think you need to join a battleground and play a few matches before you try and innovate the entire PvP experience.

The Blue lines encirlcing the zone are for Alliance Boats dropping players off. The Red lines crossing the middle of the zone represent Horde Zeppelins dropping players off across the zone. I don't know what your lines represent.

So you were planning on giving horde mid control at the start of the game with higher access to the entire map? Jesus Christ... Have you actually ever played a video game before? I just imagine the horde mages launching off the zepp with slowfall in all directions immediately grabbing every valuable node while the alliance are slowly waiting to find a spot to jump off, and then swim 10-20 yards before being able to mount... Start every match losing. Sick PvP idea dude.

I think you need to join a battleground and play a few matches before you try and innovate the entire PvP experience.

Honestly, I think both realms should use ships. The boats would let players off right next to the shorline. The Horde boat travels one direction and the Alliance boat travels the opposite direction. You jump off the boat and mount up. Honor would mainly be awarded through players kills and roaming the zone. I do think there should be Keeps that can be taken by large groups however. Large groups can fight over Keeps/Castles for honor. However, roaming as a large group would not be an efficient way to farm honor from player kills.

The whole point of the boat system is so that players enter the Frontier from many directions and can't be camped.

Honestly, I think both realms should use ships. The boats would let players off right next to the shorline. You jump off the boat and mount up. Honor were mainly be awarded through players kills and roaming the zone. I do think there should be Keeps that can be taken by large groups however. Large groups can fight over Keeps/Castles for honor. However, roaming as a large group would not be an efficient way to farm honor from player kills.

The whole point of the boat system is so that players enter the Frontier from many directions and can't be camped.

But that isnt what you said, that isnt what you thought and that isnt what you drew. You didnt even consider the glaring imbalance that would cause until it was outlined. You were going to give a faction mid control. These are the types of oversights you continuously fail to see... Very obvious issues with your ideas. And so this is what we do... You give a terrible idea, I tell you why its terrible, you justify your idea and try to run damage control to salvage it. I give you more critique, you address that critique as if you had already thought of those concerns and we go on and on and on... Your idea never gets better, the idea never improves and we are left with an awful idea that you cant identify as awful. There is nothing here to salvage. You took a failed system (again) and then rehashed it without adding anything new.

Honestly, I think both realms should use ships. The boats would let players off right next to the shorline. You jump off the boat and mount up. Honor were mainly be awarded through players kills and roaming the zone. I do think there should be Keeps that can be taken by large groups however. Large groups can fight over Keeps/Castles for honor. However, roaming as a large group would not be an efficient way to farm honor from player kills.

The whole point of the boat system is so that players enter the Frontier from many directions and can't be camped.

But that isnt what you said, that isnt what you thought and that isnt what you drew. You didnt even consider the glaring imbalance that would cause until it was outlined. You were going to give a faction mid control. These are the types of oversights you continuously fail to see... Very obvious issues with your ideas. And so this is what we do... You give a terrible idea, I tell you why its terrible, you justify your idea and trying to run damage control to salvage it, I give you more critique, you address that critique as if you had already thought of those concerns and we go on and on and on... The idea is awful. There is nothing here to salvage. You took a failed system (again) and then rehashed it without adding anything new.

Where did I outline where the objectives where? The objectives could all be near the shoreline. It isn't about one faction controlling the zone, it is about small scale honor farming. Players enter the zone to search for and kill other players primarily. You want to split players up once they enter the zone. You don't want Horde and Alliance to be entering the zone in the same spot.

Determing what the objectives would be is important. You don't want players farming honor through objectives that are uncontested. You ultimately just want players to spread out and roam. Would having Keeps fights for larger groups be a bad idea, is it better to just never incentivize large group pvp I wonder?

Where did I outline where the objectives where? The objectives could all be near the shoreline.

Previously on RedridgeGnolls big PvP idea...

The objectives in the Frontier would be varied and spread out.

Do you see what you're doing here? This is damage control. You previously said the objectives were all spread out. Though, it wouldn't matter if they were near the shore, even if this is clearly not what you intended (you didnt intend for them to be by the shoreline and you didn't know why mid control was important), because mid control would still be superior. Want to know how I know this, and want to know why no one here will disagree with me? Because we have all PvP'd before and having mid control with an easy path to rotate is dominant positioning and will win. Many teams will opt to sacrifice a node just to hold mid control because it is so strategically valuable.

Your lack of insight is telling. You should not be proposing PvP ideas because you dont understand the core fundamentals of PvP.

Where did I outline where the objectives where? The objectives could all be near the shoreline.

Do you see what you're doing here? This is damage control. You previously said the objectives were all spread out. Though, it wouldn't matter if they were near the shore, even if this is clearly not what you intended (you didnt intend for them to be by the short and you didnt know why mid control was important), because mid control would still be superior. Want to know how I know this, and want to know why no one here will disagree with me? Because we have all PvP'd before and having mid control with an easy path to rotate is dominant positioning and will win. Many teams will opt to sacrifice a node just to hold mid control because it is so strategically valuable.

Your lack of insight is telling. You should not be proposing PvP ideas because you dont understand the core fundamentals of PvP.

The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups. This isn't some faction v faction large scale battle for control. The whole purpose of the objectives are to just move small groups players around the zone Besides you could always try using boats for both factions instead.. Do I think there could be a large scale objective somewhere? It would be interesting, but you have to realistically make it so that large groups can't reliably farm honor from player kills.

I get back to the premise of having Horde and Alliance in a Frontier. Why would they zerg if only one single group earns honor? Why would they zerg if the objectives could only be controlled by individual players or small groups? If the honor gains are low for zergs, then why would they even bother and not BG instead? In Dark Age of Camelot there were no battlegrounds at max level, so there were no options. Zerging isn't the only issue, it is just the concept of large groups. 5+ players fighting 2-3 players. That is what Frontiers are trying to discourage. Competitive PvPers want small scale encounters.

RedridgeTroll gonna farm himself up to 60.

Don't feed the troll, let him post his dumb ideas for himself.

/thumbsdown

/Mooo

RedridgeTroll gonna farm himself up to 60.

Don't feed the troll, let him post his dumb ideas for himself.

/thumbsdown

/Mooo

Still more than 30 days left, this man is providing us all with solid content, regardless if it is fictional. Im all in.

The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups. This isn't some faction v faction large scale battle for control. The whole purpose of the objectives is to just move small groups players around the zone Besides you could always try using boats for both factions instead.. Do I think there could be a large scale objective somewhere? It would be interesting, but you have to realistically make it so that large groups can't reliably farm honor from player kills.

I get back to the premise of having Horde and Alliance in a Frontier. Why would they zerg if only one single group earns honor? Why would they zerg if the objectives could only be controlled by individual players or small groups? If the honor gains are low for zergs, then why would they even bother and not BG instead? In Dark Age of Camelot there were no battlegrounds at max level, so there were no options. Zerging isn't the only issue, it is just the concept of large groups. 5+ players fighting 2-3 players. That is what Frontiers are trying to discourage.

Your idea is all over the place... You cant even keep it straight. First it was open world, then there were population caps. First we had objectives spread out, and now the objective is to get kills (which will be a MASSIVE concern with faction imbalance). First you drew a diagram where horde had mid control, and then you said you wanted both teams to be on boats... You should probably get your head straight and figure out what YOU want before you try and sell it to the rest of us.

The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups. This isn't some faction v faction large scale battle for control. The whole purpose of the objectives is to just move small groups players around the zone Besides you could always try using boats for both factions instead.. Do I think there could be a large scale objective somewhere? It would be interesting, but you have to realistically make it so that large groups can't reliably farm honor from player kills.

I get back to the premise of having Horde and Alliance in a Frontier. Why would they zerg if only one single group earns honor? Why would they zerg if the objectives could only be controlled by individual players or small groups? If the honor gains are low for zergs, then why would they even bother and not BG instead? In Dark Age of Camelot there were no battlegrounds at max level, so there were no options. Zerging isn't the only issue, it is just the concept of large groups. 5+ players fighting 2-3 players. That is what Frontiers are trying to discourage.

Your idea is all over the place... You cant even keep it straight. First it was open world, then there were population caps. First we had objectives spread out, and now the objective is to get kills (which will be a MASSIVE concern with faction imbalance). First you drew a diagram where horde had mid control, and then you said you wanted both teams to be on boats... You should probably get your head straight and figure out what YOU want before you try and sell it to the rest of us.

I absolutely think that Frontiers should be free of sharding and instancing. Having it be server-only is always preferable. I have made concessions, because I think it is important to explore any criticism of the system. Boats, Zeppelins... the whole point is so that players don't enter the Frontier at the same location so there is no camping. Faction imbalance is mitigated in the following ways. Frontiers are designed to incentivize small scale PvP. This means honor is restricted to single groups or players. Honor gained is heavily and incrementally diminished the larger a group size is. There are underpopulation bonuses for capturing objectives and killing enemies. The goal being to promote Arena-type PvP fights.

I am concerned about having repeatable objectives that one faction can just complete over and over. Objectives should reward players once upon capture, then award additional honor if they are defended. You have this perception that if one faction is outnumbered that they will be ganged up on. If there are 20 horde and 6 Alliance in the zone, then the 20 horde won't be incentivized to group up to hunt the 6 alliance. If those 20 horde are split into small roaming groups, the population imbalance in the zone is not that important. Population imbalance in a zone doesn't guarantee unfair fights. That is evidenced by World PvP zones like searing gorge and eastern plaguelands.

Stfuppercut so you are grinding here! :biggrin: