How would this not be awesome though? Give players another way to farm honor. Have resources they can collect around a map, but also make them drop when killed in PvP. It brings more players out of the Capital Cities and away from 24/7 BG queue spamming.
Because it has been done. We have seen the result of this exact type of gameplay. It does not work. If you had actually played warhammer or played all of WoW up to and including BFA, or if you had actual experience working on vanilla wow (as you have eluded to in the past) you would be able to use your critical thinking to realize that this is a poor idea. You arent moving the ball forward in the conversation... You arent coming up with new ideas. You are taking ideas that are over a decade old and regurgitating a subtle variance to the original idea.
I've already went over this with you before. You want more world PvP. Your ideas are ALL related to increasing world PvP. What you dont realize, is that each of your ideas have been implemented previously in a similar variant and have failed to work... I'll state this again. HONOR PER HOUR. If you want more world PvP, adjust the honor that world kills give and thus players will be incentivized to farm World PvP instead of battlegrounds. I am not saying I agree with you, because I don't, but if you want MORE world PvP, simply adjust the reward from world PvP. You dont need boats, and player housing and air drops and PvP zones on timers and treasure chests... None of those terrible ideas are necessary. Just adjust the reward from PvP to favor farming world PvP and players will farm World PvP. This will come with a host of other issues, but this is the outcome you want. Players will be less interested in BG's and will spend all of their time farming honor in the world.
I am a PvPer. I love PvP. I made it to rank 13 in retail vanilla. Vanilla is a PvE game with PvP sprinkled in. As much as I love PvP, the game went to shit when PvP became the focal point of the game. If you want a PvP focused game, you do not want Classic. It is not a PvP focused game. There are elements of PvP that are used to enhance the overall experience and to reinforce the lore that glues the world together, but this game is a PvE game.
There has been a recent development. Apparently, in 1.12 The Silithyst Must Flow in Silithus gave 200 honor per turn in. That seems like a lot, so then why wasn't collecting these Silithyst crystals more popular, if the honor reward was pretty high?
Because NO variation of this system has ever stuck! Ever. Ever. Ever. It does not work. Your idea is not new. It has been done.
How would this not be awesome though? Give players another way to farm honor. Have resources they can collect around a map, but also make them drop when killed in PvP. It brings more players out of the Capital Cities and away from 24/7 BG queue spamming.
Because it has been done. We have seen the result of this exact type of gameplay. It does not work. If you had actually played warhammer or played all of WoW up to and including BFA, or if you had actual experience working on vanilla wow (as you have eluded to in the past) you would be able to use your critical thinking to realize that this is a poor idea. You arent moving the ball forward in the conversation... You arent coming up with new ideas. You are taking ideas that are over a decade old and regurgitating a subtle variance to the original idea.
I've already went over this with you before. You want more world PvP. Your ideas are ALL related to increasing world PvP. What you dont realize, is that each of your ideas have been implemented previously in a similar variant and have failed to work... I'll state this again. HONOR PER HOUR. If you want more world PvP, adjust the honor that world kills give and thus players will be incentivized to farm World PvP instead of battlegrounds. I am not saying I agree with you, because I don't, but if you want MORE world PvP, simply adjust the reward from world PvP. You dont need boats, and player housing and air drops and PvP zones on timers and treasure chests... None of those terrible ideas are necessary. Just adjust the reward from PvP to favor farming world PvP and players will farm World PvP. This will come with a host of other issues, but this is the outcome you want. Players will be less interested in BG's and will spend all of their time farming honor in the world.
I am a PvPer. I love PvP. I made it to rank 13 in retail vanilla. Vanilla is a PvE game with PvP sprinkled in. As much as I love PvP, the game went to shit when PvP became the focal point of the game. If you want a PvP focused game, you do not want Classic. It is not a PvP focused game. There are elements of PvP that are used to enhance the overall experience and to reinforce the lore that glues the world together, but this game is a PvE game.
There has been a recent development. Apparently, in 1.12 The Silithyst Must Flow in Silithus gave 200 honor per turn in. That seems like a lot, so then why wasn't collecting these Silithyst crystals more popular, if the honor reward was pretty high?
Because NO variation of this system has ever stuck! Ever. Ever. Ever. It does not work. Your idea is not new. It has been done.
I agree that Blizzard changing the focus to Arena and ratings was a bad idea. There are simply better games out there that do that kind of thing. Yes, the honor rewards in World PvP should be made way higher, but you still need reasons for players to populate the zones. The issue is creating quality World PvP. Part of the reason it never works is because it devolves into activities like zerging or flightmaster camping. Those behaviors are not healthy for World PvP or the game. You want players roaming entire zones and splitting up. The purpose being to create mostly small scale fights..
The only time this resource concept existed was with The Silithyst Must Flow in Silithus. It is fairly similar to the idea suggested in the OP. Silithyst geysers could be looted in the zone, and players would turn in the Silithyst for a 200 honor reward. I think that this idea had promise, but could have been improved upon.
Players will take the path of least resistance. Honor per hour. Your idea would encourage players to run right by each other. The fact that you can’t realize that shows that you have no foresight. Every effort Blizz has made to create world conflict has been a terrible implementation. This is not a PvP game and it does not need to be transformed into a PvP game. You don’t want Classic. You want some awful mutated version of the game that would appeal to a very small portion of the user-base. You’re asking for specific critiques but that is impossible because no part of this idea is salvageable. We have already seen variations be implemented by Blizz and in other MMOs and it always fails. Why would we advocate for adding a failed system to Classic?
Players will take the path of least resistance. Honor per hour. Your idea would encourage players to run right by each other. The fact that you can’t realize that shows that you have no foresight. Every effort Blizz has made to create world conflict has been a terrible implementation. This is not a PvP game and it does not need to be transformed into a PvP game. You don’t want Classic. You want some awful mutated version of the game that would appeal to a very small portion of the user-base. You’re asking for specific critiques but that is impossible because no part of this idea is salvageable. We have already seen variations be implemented by Blizz and in other MMOs and it always fails. Why would we advocate for adding a failed system to Classic?
I agree that Blizzard's World PvP implementations were failures. However, the Silithus one actually had decent rewards and potential. I read that on Kronos a lot of players were farming Silithyst Geysers instead of doing Battlegrounds. It became so popular on Kronos that the developers nerfed the Honor gain from 200 to 19 or whatever it currently is on retail. This thread details the drama https://forum.twinstar.cz/threads/silithyst-geyser-nerf-remove.100845/
Back during Vanilla, I do not think many players were aware of the potential honor gains available in silithus. It was 200 honor for 1 turn-in. I am critical of how the system worked. You could only carry one resource at a time, and they would often spawn mear the turn-in location. I realize that ignoring PvP and just collecting the geysers one by one was the best strategy. That system was flawed for that reason. This video shows the Silithus objective:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=b8zo6W6_Pc4&t=1m27s
You could only collect one geyser at a time, and it seemed like the best strategy was to collect the geyser and run it back to your base camp. Why gank another player and loot the geyser off them, when you instead can just find your own geyser?
This video sort of demonstrates that. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEr5-RVhyHs
If Silithus is as game breaking as you say it is, we sure don’t need more honor versions and hopefully it’ll get rained in by Blizzard.
If Silithus is as game breaking as you say it is, we sure don’t need more honor versions and hopefully it’ll get rained in by Blizzard.
#nochanges :lol:
The Silithyst resource objective that existed in 1.12 is pretty similar to the one I detailed in the OP. This was in Classic. My question is, what improvements could have been made to the one that existed in Classic?
The way it worked was that geysers would spawn around Silithus, and there were was a Horde and Alliance base where you could turn in a collected geyser. Players could only carry one geyser at a time. From what I understand, because you could only carry one geyser at a time, it wasn't really worthwhile to gank an enemy, because you couldn't carry more than one anyway. If you already had a geyser, then you wouldn't even be able to loot a second one off of another player.
Therefore, the optimal strategy probably would have been to ignore other players and just run the geysers back to base camp one by one. I can see how this could be problematic, especially if there were too many geysers spawning. What would be a better solution then? Make it so that players must collect 5 geysers in order to turn them in. This would require more roaming, and give players potentially more of an incentive to gank and loot others. You could collect 1 geyser, then gank and loot 5 off of another player bringing your total now to 6. Raising the turn-in requirement might have been a solution.
What if the geysers were simply harder to locate and required more roaming? If there were fewer geysers to comeby, then perhaps this would incentivize more players to engage in PvP. I am concerned about the base camp turn-in locations though. What would prevent enemy players from just camping outside a basecamp?
#somechanges :mrgreen:
Players will take the path of least resistance. Honor per hour. Your idea would encourage players to run right by each other. The fact that you can’t realize that shows that you have no foresight. Every effort Blizz has made to create world conflict has been a terrible implementation. This is not a PvP game and it does not need to be transformed into a PvP game. You don’t want Classic. You want some awful mutated version of the game that would appeal to a very small portion of the user-base. You’re asking for specific critiques but that is impossible because no part of this idea is salvageable. We have already seen variations be implemented by Blizz and in other MMOs and it always fails. Why would we advocate for adding a failed system to Classic?
Why would players run past eachother and ignore one another? I understand why that might have been the case with The Silithyst Must Flow, because you were limited to carrying one resource at a time. Also, if you watch the video you can see that the geysers spawn within 1 minute of walking distance to the camps. That is an issue. If players could carry many resources at once, and it was required that you needed a certain amount in order to complete a turn-in, then why would ganking not happen? Let's say you need 10 of a resource in order to complete the turn-in. You would roam around collecting it one by one until you've collected a total of 3 resources. Wouldn't killing other players be worthwhile, since they might be carrying 7 resources which would get you to 10?
Since WoW classic won't be a remaster or updated game, I don't think they'd implement big changes like this. Does that mean that what you've put forward here is a bad idea? No, I don't think so. I still have some hope they'll implement some stuff that doesn't change the old stuff, for instance unused vanilla zones like Hyjal. No reason they couldn't try out stuff like this there!
I think the main reason world based objective pvp zones don't work super well has one main cause.
Zone Population Falloff:
As people level they encounter an area. Let's take the BC Hellfire Peninsula towers. I always thought it was a cool idea, bases that could be capped in the middle of a zone, constantly under siege or being stealthily stolen.
The problem is this, as people level up they don't have enough of an incentive to stay there. Honor can be gotten efficiently/enjoyably in other ways or people that don't like pvp in the first place try to find another place to level (which can be a pain/impossible depending on the expansion).
The solution is rather drastic. You either make the rewards worthwhile so that high level players continue having a reason to repeat that content, or make it so in that zone your level gets lowered. The first solution means any low levels organically progressing through a zone are going to get completely steamrolled by high level players farming the good gear. The second solution is a drastic departure from the game design tenets of Classic.
Add to this concept the idea that as expansions get released a whole area quickly becomes an obstacle to overcome rather than a game mode to repeat, and areas like Hellfire Peninsula quickly become a drag on time the developers have to make things. For this kind of zone to be worth it, it has to stay competitive with endgame content to consistently have the population it needs to remain enjoyable.
Therefore, the optimal strategy probably would have been to ignore other players and just run the geysers back to base camp one by one. I can see how this could be problematic, especially if there were too many geysers spawning. What would be a better solution then?
"I can see how this would be problematic and how my idea is just another repeat, but if I can just continue this thought for a moment..." Oh my...
Therefore, the optimal strategy probably would have been to ignore other players and just run the geysers back to base camp one by one. I can see how this could be problematic, especially if there were too many geysers spawning. What would be a better solution then?
"I can see how this would be problematic and how my idea is just another repeat, but if I can just continue this thought for a moment..." Oh my...
On Kronos, the Silithus Geyser farming was so popular that the developers nerfed the honor gains from 200 to 19. They changed the 1.12 honor values to the retail values. I think that back in Vanilla many players were unaware of how efficient the Silithus turn-ins were. I think the issue was that you were only required to turn-in one geyser to earn the honor bonus. Players actually couldn't carry more than one at a time. Why would you bother attacking another player, when you couldn't even loot/carry the geyser that they might drop? It seems like it would have been far more effective to just ignore enemy players and collect geysers near your basecamp. The way to disrupt this would be to change the requirement for the turn-ins. Instead of requiring 1 geyser, what if it required 5 or 10? This would force players to roam across Silithus collecting 5 or 10 resources to complete the turn-in. This would also making killing another player more worthwhile, because you could actually add geysers to your total. If you had collected 3 geysers so far, then encountered an enemy player farming geyers, you could potentially kill and loot 7 geysers off them which would raise your total to 10.
The original system that Blizzard designed in Silithus, where you could only carry one resource at a time was part of the issue. If the requirement was 5 or 10 geysers, wouldn't that create more World PvP activity, since players would spend more time roaming the zone. Having no cap on how many geysers you could carry would also incentivize more PvP action, since you could add to your total. You couldn't do that in the original system, since you were limited to a single geyser. The way it worked in 1.12, was your faction need 200 geyser turn-ins to complete the objective. Players could only carry and turn-in one at a time. 200 honor was a fairly substantial reward, considering players were often collecting single geysers just yards outside of their basecamps. I mean what would be the solution to improve the The Silithyst Must Flow pvp objective that existed back in 1.12. You can read about it here
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Silithyst_Must_Flow (The honor for a turn-in was 200, not whatever is listed in that article)
Even if Silithus required more geysers to give you honor, people would rather safe it than risk losing them, just like we said about your idea.
The risk of losing everything is too high for it to be worth while in most cases once you take combat duration and run back into the equation.
NO
These "Ideas" is what eventually let to the game where it is today.
NO THANK YOU
Even if Silithus required more geysers to give you honor, people would rather safe it than risk losing them, just like we said about your idea.
The risk of losing everything is too high for it to be worth while in most cases once you take combat duration and run back into the equation.
Why would some players not attack eachother though? If you only have 1-2 geysers, and you see an enemy player running back to camp with geysers why not attack them? That player would likely have at minimum 5 geysers since they would be completing the turn-in. The enemy player would have more to lose than you would. Ganking players in Silithus who are collecting geysers could also be a faster way to collect the geysers. In Vanilla, you had to run the geyser back to the basecamp, so you would always be at risk of being killed while returning to basecamp. Having to run back to basecamp from the edges of the desert would surely make you a target. You could have players who prefer scouting and ganking players returning to basecamp with geysers.
In the original system you could only carry 1 geyser at a time, so if you ganked an enemy player you couldn't even loot a second geyser. I can see why players would just avoid PvP combat and just collect them one by one instead. However, if the requirement is raised to 5 or 10, ganking players to collect geysers seems like it would be a viable playstyle. I am curious what other posters think or how The Silithyst Must Flow could have been improved. ( https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Silithyst_Must_Flow )
NO
These "Ideas" is what eventually let to the game where it is today.
NO THANK YOU
Erik this idea exists in Classic WoW. It is just an iteration of what already existed in 1.12. I am just finding a solution to improve the original feature.
Because the chance of dying a losing it all.
Like it’s been said it’s been tried in various versions and it mostly turn out the same.
Because the chance of dying a losing it all.
Like it’s been said it’s been tried in various versions and it mostly turn out the same.
You make some good points Tec, I am just trying to refine this idea. I understand why a player with like 10 geysers might not initiate combat. They probably just want to safely return to camp. However, what about a player with only 1 or 2 geysers? If they are roaming Silithus and see another player farming geysers, then why not attack them? You could loot like 10 geysers off them. There are situations where the enemy would be more vulnerable, and have a lot more to lose than you would, which is why the PvP happens. There could be players that focus more on ganking and looting geysers, instead of collecting them off nodes for example.
Because the chance of dying a losing it all.
Like it’s been said it’s been tried in various versions and it mostly turn out the same.
But this time its different! I just know it!!!!
Each faction would need to collect 200 Silithyst to earn the faction rep buff. Each Silithyst rewards 200 honor. You need at least 10 Silithyst to complete the turn-in at your faction's basecamp. The turn-in stations only accept stacks of 10 Silithyst. Players would need to collect 10 Silithyst in order to complete the turn-in. The reward would be 2,000 honor. Players who carry Silithyst glow red. I don't think movement reduction is necessary on Silithyst carriers.
Because players would need to collect 10 Silithyst for a turn-in, they would need to roam Silithus searching for geysers.
Let's say you walk into Silithus and begin looting geysers. After roaming for 10 minutes you loot 4 Silithyst. You know you need 6 more to get credit for the turn-in, so you continue roaming the zone. A while later you are at 8 Silithyst, and begin heading towards the basecamp. You are then ganked by a player who has been watching you collect the Silithyst. You are killed and the enemy players loots 8 Silithyst off your corpse. The enemy player spent only a few minutes searching for Silithyst. They instead watching you collect it, and then ganked you to loot the 8 you were carrying.
You could walk into Silithus, gank a few players, then find yourself with 25 Silithyst. Just like that. A gatherer could spent 30 minutes gathering 10 Silithyst only to be ganked at lose them all in 30 seconds.
Below is a map with an example of Silithyst spawns in Silithus.
https://imgur.com/a/2JZYWmY
Because the chance of dying a losing it all.
Like it’s been said it’s been tried in various versions and it mostly turn out the same.
You make some good points Tec, I am just trying to refine this idea. I understand why a player with like 10 geysers might not initiate combat. They probably just want to safely return to camp. However, what about a player with only 1 or 2 geysers? If they are roaming Silithus and see another player farming geysers, then why not attack them? You could loot like 10 geysers off them. There are situations where the enemy would be more vulnerable, and have a lot more to lose than you would, which is why the PvP happens. There could be players that focus more on ganking and looting geysers, instead of collecting them off nodes for example.
I wouldn’t say it’s making good points as much as it’s been proven again and again to be the wow players and people’s behavior in general.
Most people don’t like any sort of risk when trying to maximize profit, in this case honor.
They’ll just do the safe way because it’s a consistent way and therefore looked at as the most efficient way.
Yes, some will attack regardless, majority hardly will and it’s been tested and tried so many times I have absolutely no clue how you could salvage your idea in mind without a complete rework somehow.
I don’t think you can change that player mentality.
Because the chance of dying a losing it all.
Like it’s been said it’s been tried in various versions and it mostly turn out the same.
But this time its different! I just know it!!!!
