I added them because one of the possible functions of Blessing of Protection is as a pseudo-taunt - so taunt comes into play that for a warrior their taunt and Invulnerability action are on separate cooldowns.

As for Berserker rage - your quote said a Pally could use Divine shield to counter a fear so I added in Beserker rage which is the Warrior's fear counter (also on a separate CD from invuln pot).
Oh I get it now, thanks.
I just copied the quote in regards to dropping/keeping aggro, not really thinking about the fear/stun comment part. I wasn't actually thinking about comparing DS to BR because BR makes you immune to it for like 10s, which is definitely better. But yeah, that could be an application for DS too.

Also I think I actually found a video proving that DS doesn't drop aggro. It's Timangi's R14 PvP movie. I didn't find it online on YT, so here's an archive link: https://archive.org/details/Cromfel_-_Cromfel_s_Timangi_-_R14_Paladin_Paladin_2006-08-12_4.29
Dunno You should see a WEBM download option on the right side, so take that one and it'll download the movie. Nevermind, it actually embedded it here :mrgreen:
At 4:44 starts a Silithus clip with an aggroed elemental on a horde hunter's pet. Timangi damages the elemental during the fight with Consecration (4:52), then he pops DS at 5:10. He doesn't damage the elemental in any way after using DS. When the horde hunter dies, the elemental goes after Timangi. If DS dropped all aggro, the elemental would "reset" and go to his spawn point right (or after the Rogue if he had aggro too)?

A paladin can easily do both. But feel free to prove it's otherwise.

Due to the nature of "proving it otherwise" (showing a video of a Prot Pally wiping...? I mean, wouldn't you just say the raid or the pally was unskilled and that it doesn't prove anything? Just about anyone can wipe a raid), it would be better to show a Prot Pally in a progression raid confidently clearing content.

If Palatank really can't do both, then for example it will take a toll on the healers, who need to be using Mana pots and Innervates to be able to keep him alive.
From the other side - if the Palatank is able to mitigate damage well enough so that the healers are fine without consumables, then the Palatank should be constantly having runaway mobs because of not being able to produce enough threat.

I say Pala can really do both.

At 4:44 starts a Silithus clip with an aggroed elemental on a horde hunter's pet. Timangi damages the elemental during the fight with Consecration (4:52), then he pops DS at 5:10. He doesn't damage the elemental in any way after using DS. When the horde hunter dies, the elemental goes after Timangi. If DS dropped all aggro, the elemental would "reset" and go to his spawn point right (or after the Rogue if he had aggro too)?

You're right that it is not a vanish effect and I completely forgot that mobs will continue to attack Paladins under DS if they are the only one with aggro. I wish the DS had come off before the hunter had died so we could see if it would remain on him or return to the Pally. It may not be something that removes you from combat, but I didn't think it kept the target priority of the mob once it came off. Could definitely be possible, it's just not certain yet.

If Palatank really can't do both, then for example it will take a toll on the healers, who need to be using Mana pots and Innervates to be able to keep him alive.
From the other side - if the Palatank is able to mitigate damage well enough so that the healers are fine without consumables, then the Palatank should be constantly having runaway mobs because of not being able to produce enough threat.

I say Pala can really do both.

We just don't have any videos to address the matter. If it truly is possible then someone should tape their fresh first kills and post them. I am certain they would become quite famous for doing so as well. It's important that they're fresh first kills and progression raids without outside gear from the content to show that Prot Pallies do not require carrying.

And also, ideally, videos showing how far up they can go in raids without needing outside help or gear.

Yeah, the problem is people on that freshly started private realm probably won't have the gear to go raiding MC. Dunno if there's a dedicated tankadin. And any other realm out there would most likely include people with raid gear, so that's not good enough for you :wink: You'd have to make your own server with commands enabled and add the gear to players for a test run.

In the meanwhile, I stumbled upon this old discussion https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=36230&start=30
The TLDR is that you would use Judgement of Light to produce threat. Apparently threat generation from Judgement of Light is half of the standard healing threat amount, and healing threat is half of the amount healed. So for every 1 point of healing from Judgement of Light, you get 0.25 threat. Overhealing doesn't count. Highest rank of JoLight gives a chance to heal for 61, so every proc would generate up to 15,25 threat.
The funny part is that this is a chance to trigger for every melee hit from anyone attacking the target. So any melee attacker from the whole raid, even hunter pets, would have a chance to create more threat for you with every hit. I can imagine this would be crazy TPS on Magmadar or Golemagg with those fire debuffs.

The above would only be relevant in raids where there is a huge level of AoE damage going out across the entire raid to consistently benefit from it. Oftentimes raid damage is rather quickly healed up so the amount of heal-threat you'd get from JoL is miniscule.

I wouldn't be so sure of that Tewi. JoL is known for topping effective healing meters. And there's a bunch of bosses with aoe raid damage to melees. Shazzrah, Geddon, Sulfuron, Vael, drakes from BWL, Chromaggus, etc...
I guess that's another thing to try out when classic goes live.

Yeah, the problem is people on that freshly started private realm probably won't have the gear to go raiding MC. Dunno if there's a dedicated tankadin. And any other realm out there would most likely include people with raid gear, so that's not good enough for you You'd have to make your own server with commands enabled and add the gear to players for a test run.

I hear Blizzard is releasing a Fresh Server on August 27th. :wink:

I wouldn't be so sure of that @Tewi. JoL is known for topping effective healing meters. And there's a bunch of bosses with aoe raid damage to melees. Shazzrah, Geddon, Sulfuron, Vael, drakes from BWL, Chromaggus, etc...
I guess that's another thing to try out when classic goes live.

Does JoL attribute the threat to each individual player that hits it or is it to the caster of the Judgment?

I remember on some servers there were bugs that caused BoW to give threat to the Pally that cast it. If you tried to fight the Hunter Quest Demons they would despawn because it counted as someone helping you and you had to drop group after receiving the blessing to prevent the threat being attributed to the Paladin.

So if it gave threat on Nost all to the Pally it may have just been a bug. A good thing to double check once Classic gets released.

Apparently it attributed threat to the caster of the Judgement back in classic too. I think I read it somewhere on blizzard forums. But on Nost there was apparently a different bug - it generated threat from overheals.

Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIfwHZ5C9I&t=1s

This is what makes you wrong.

You posted a video showing PreBIS and Raid gear proving my point that Paladins use specifically off-tier gear [Tanking Plate off-spec pieces which are worse than Warrior Tier Gear] to say.... that my point is wrong?

You prove everybody right and then say they're wrong. Lmao.

Yeah , i am taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs because there are no mobs in 1 spot or my health will go down if i use it on multiple mobs with more than 20 seconds, i am not in Raid Group where Healer is going to Heal me all the time and i am not attacking Elite which is going to increase the duration at the mob attacking it.

You do realize I was pointing out that you're having 20+ seconds of mana regeneration between the mobs? Come on.

And this is proof about you talking stuffs you have no clue about ,first of all Judgements are refreshed from Auto Attacks , not from Judging it all the time, so Judging wont make difference, all you need is to re seal after 30 seconds which is imo 0 changes from the mana , especially that you are going to regen much more mana than spending it by attacking the same target.

And in a raiding environment you will be using Judgment of the Righteous on cooldown and refreshing the seal after every judgment.
That is what I am pointing out.
The whole discussion of Skarm was about 5 mans and AOE Parts where he said about "you can't spam max rank consecrate or you will have mana issues" .

And you can't. Because you won't be using Judgment of Wisdom and Seal of Wisdom constantly. That won't be enough AoE threat to hold anything. You'll need to supplement with Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgment and seal of the righteous.
What oil is been used doesn't matter at all , it is evidence that you can possibly spam Max Rank Consecrations without being OOM at all for infinite time.

Also in Raid environment against Single Target i am not going to use or less likely to use Consecrations for single target, it is highly inefficient and it does poor threat against Single Target , as for AOE part Seal/Judge of Wisdom as shown on Video is going to work perfectly.

The oil used does matter quite a lot seeing as it gives you MP5 as a stat and that is the subject matter. Not only that but again, the 20 seconds of regen between each mob. Using consecration twice on a mob and then regenerating it all before the next pull isn't evidence of being able to spam it.
For Raids this is how mana work for 7 minutes, what you clearly ignoring in this case :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo&t=42s

If fight which last for 7 minutes doesn't make me OOM in Raid scenario , then your point has been wrong and the Video is just evidence of you being wrong.

No Multiple Judgements stacking to keep you informed and you can see that in the Video!

Except that is not what you'd be doing in a raid scenario. Where is the constant usage of Holy Shield to maintain mitigation? A warrior has no issue using Shield Block on cooldown.

Juju flurry on cooldown to increase attack speed, therefore increasing mana regeneration from judgment of wisdom.

Not only that, you're also spamming mana pots and dark runes on cooldown to keep your mana up. Mana pots that could otherwise be used for mitigation from Stoneshield Potion, which a Paladin cannot do if he wants to keep threat up.

A warrior needs neither to maintain their resource, nor do they need a specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay.

I'd also like to break down this video in another way -

Why are you attacking a low level target dummy and covering it up with your "Protection Rules" banner? It's also not like 600TPS is good, especially with Thunderfury. Anybody who knows the Repack and how to setup a test server knows that particular dummy isn't the level 60 or 63 ??Boss level target dummy.
Just take a look at the complete lack of glancing blows.

It's not me who shows them in a skewed vacuum , it's you and overall Protection Paladin haters who demand and cherry pick all the time things , despite of what was already proven , you still are going to cherry pick more and more of it (abusing my poor english too in order to prove your point).

Where did I abuse your poor english? Where did I cherrypick?

Here's how a debate works - Evidence is stripped apart and criticized where it needs to be criticized. It isn't my fault that your "evidence" has multiple holes and skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance of genuine testing and real-world examples.

Engineering is not going to do more Threat than spamming Consecration Max Ranks , not even close to it for AoE

Engineering gadgets are boosted by Defiance and Defensive Stance's base threat increase. As is demo shout, battle shout, thunderfury's proc, engineering shield's proc, thorns effects. Everything.

Protection Paladins only have consecrate and Holy shield being boosted by Righteous Fury. Aside from that, engineering gadgets do regular threat.

I'd say it's about equal. Paladins have it EASIER in terms of execution, but a warrior still has you beat due to overall higher levels of mitigation from the flat 10% damage reduction, kiting in the form of Piercing Howl when they do need it, and an unlimited resource.

With Classic who is going to provide 14% parry haste , with Classic who is going to have Mobs and Bosses doing 3-4 times lower damage than Private Servers , with Classic who is not going to have Bugs which makes Warrior overpowered and Paladin underpowered , not only your Warrior and Druids are not going to be optimal , but they are going to be shit (with exception of Druids for threat abusing MCP farming the "legit and clever mechanic abuse").

I can assure you that the gap between Paladins and Druid/Warrior will still be pretty big within raiding and progression content. Warriors and druids are absolutely going to be optimal, as they always have been.
The damage is not 3-4 times lower. You looked at Esfand tanking on the beta at the level cap on there (With twinked and enchanted gear) compared to your supposedly "better" gear while you were levelling. Extremely misinforming and disingenuous like the majority of your "evidence."
Now imagine in Classic with 14% parry and Parry haste from Bosses = Warrior Shield Blocks are going to be swallowed immediately before next one appear and then you are going to be victim of Crushing Blows and perhaps Crits (if not def cap), while Paladin Holy shield have longer duration and you can always parry/dodge/miss in between so your Holy Shield wont be removed like your Shield Block.

Parry haste can be up to 40%. Up to, depending on how long away the next bosses attack is. If anything there will be one attack that will go through, which again can be blocked, dodged, parried, or miss just as it will in your Holy Shield example. It's not as if warriors straight up lose all semblance of avoidance and mitigation the moment their shield block drops.

It's going to affect warrior threat for sure, as it will with druids. I'll concede that Paladins have two threat sources that bypass Parry - Holy Shield and Consecrate, which are a small portion of a Prot Paladin's threat.

Warriors will be fine.
Now imagine in Classic with Warriors taking lesser damage due to Mobs and Bosses hitting lesser than Pservers = Warrior Rage generation is going to be shit , which is going to make them loose very easy aggro and do extremely poor threat , while Paladin wont be affected by this.

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors not regenerating enough Rage due to lower damage output thanks to how Glancing Blows we all witness in Beta = poor aggro.

Now imagine in Classic where Warriors are not going to regenerate Rage from certain types of Debuffs and certain types of AoE unlike Pservers where they gain Rage from it = poor aggro.

You far overstate how much the rage difference will be. They will still have enough rage to spam sunder. Druids have hilariously few rage issues in raiding content due to maul costing 10 rage, or 7 with their idol.

Only because there is lack of info about Paladins , only because all the fearmongering spread around about Paladins , only because all "noobs Streamers" like Skarm pretend they are experts and telling people how Paladins are terrible , only because all "noobs website Guide Bloggers Tankadins" like Cystheen pretend they are experts and telling people Paladins can't tank without thousand of Consumes and only because Trolls like you Brainwashing everyone with lies and false info about Paladins and denigrate those like me who try to help Protection Paladin fans and community.

That's the reason why you can't see vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40 man raid progression environment!

It has been 15 years. We've seen a lot of new developments with the advent of private servers for sure. I'll give you that.

However not one person has come forward with tangible [read; not you] and comprehensible evidence that Prot Paladins are optimal anywhere other than niche AoE situations?

Sure, Paladins can tank without consumables. But they fall short of Warriors and Druids, who can also use consumables to greatly increase the gap.

Paladins take more damage due to using offspec gear.
Paladins deal less damage due to being mana starved constantly.
Paladins deal less threat both due to mana and lacking spell damage on the only viable gear for tanking.

Every video you show is in guilds where debuffs are all over the place and you're allowed to get a massive threat lead, not to mention some of the videos of your threat tests showing multiple consumables and thunderfury on low level targets which proves nothing.

There's a reason you're a bit of a meme in the tanking community.

You posted a video showing PreBIS and Raid gear proving my point that Paladins use specifically off-tier gear [Tanking Plate off-spec pieces which are worse than Warrior Tier Gear] to say.... that my point is wrong?

You prove everybody right and then say they're wrong. Lmao.

No , the Video did prove you wrong where you said : Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

You do realize I was pointing out that you're having 20+ seconds of mana regeneration between the mobs? Come on.

And you do realize that during mob fighting my Mana was never going down thanks to regenerating it from Mob who i attacked ?! You don't obviously , even that there was spamming Consecration max ranks all the time , my mana was always filled before next Consecration is ready,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8R8jFndSE

1st mob 0:18 - 0:36 = 3 Consecrations , before 2nd and 3rd Consecration was cast (on CD) the mana was already filled to maximum , this is what you try to miss manipulate in this discussion!
And in a raiding environment you will be using Judgment of the Righteous on cooldown and refreshing the seal after every judgment.
That is what I am pointing out.

For AoE Parts , no , i would never do that, why would i!? When it is extremely inefficient and poor AoE rotation , i'd rather use more Consecrations for whole Group than using Judges to the mobs!

For Single Target, AoE is not good to use , it's not best single target threat Ability and there is no point in using it that much other than if you got more than enough mana for joking with it for extra dps (which prot warriors wont match that dps) .
And you can't. Because you won't be using Judgment of Wisdom and Seal of Wisdom constantly. That won't be enough AoE threat to hold anything. You'll need to supplement with Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgment and seal of the righteous.

And i assume you are Skarm itself perhaps.

Certainly it is going to be 10 times higher threat to hold than a Warriors are going to do.

But the words you say to use Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgement and seal of righteousness clearly shows that you have no fucking clue what are you even talking about and how Protection Paladin work in AoE situation.

Damn it's so funny to even read Holy Shield and Tab targeting Judges of Righteousness and not using Seal/Judge of Wisdom to your Main Target during AoE situation ROFL , when a single Consecration for AoE is much bigger threat than Tab targeting and Holy Shields all together.

You act like you try for very first time Paladin but yeah i hope @psojed can laugh about this too :)
The oil used does matter quite a lot seeing as it gives you MP5 as a stat and that is the subject matter. Not only that but again, the 20 seconds of regen between each mob. Using consecration twice on a mob and then regenerating it all before the next pull isn't evidence of being able to spam it.

Then you ignore the part where my Mana was full before 2nd and 3rd Consecration was cast from Seal/Judge of Wisdom itself , while the Oil didn't made any difference there within those 16 seconds at all!

Still you cherry pick the part about "oh you used 3rd consecration and spent 10% of you mana which got regenerated between the pulls" .
Except that is not what you'd be doing in a raid scenario. Where is the constant usage of Holy Shield to maintain mitigation? A warrior has no issue using Shield Block on cooldown.

Sure but then in a raid scenario (against single target) we are replacing Holy Shield with Consecrations spams , so we use Consecration time to time but keeping Holy Shields and Judges on CD , because Consecration against single target is poor threat and not best option to use.
Juju flurry on cooldown to increase attack speed, therefore increasing mana regeneration from judgment of wisdom.

Yeah sure, few seconds attack speed , it can be replaced with Innervates , Power Infusions , Raid Buffs , World Buffs etc etc in a Raid environment , which is not even in the Video shown , but you know PI , Innervates , Raid Buffs, World Buffs = regardless of which one of them you have , it's still much bigger than Juju for Attack Speed, but also even Juju i can farm very easy in Raids in order to use it on CD during a Boss fight.
Not only that, you're also spamming mana pots and dark runes on cooldown to keep your mana up. Mana pots that could otherwise be used for mitigation from Stoneshield Potion, which a Paladin cannot do if he wants to keep threat up.

Then again , why would i spam all those stuffs in a Raid if i have much bigger aggro than the group , which mean i wont be having any need of Mana Pots or Runes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk

No Runes, No Pots used. Which also bring your point down !
A warrior needs neither to maintain their resource, nor do they need a specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay.

Neither Paladin needs it as you have seen in the Video above ^ .

But let find out how "warriors don't need specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay", oh Sunder used (Debuff) , Deep Wounds (Debuff) . Great!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoAFJtXH70c

Especially that Warrior in this Video is using shit tons of Consumes at the very same Boss where i used only 1 elixir and no pots,no runes .
I'd also like to break down this video in another way -

Why are you attacking a low level target dummy and covering it up with your "Protection Rules" banner? It's also not like 600TPS is good, especially with Thunderfury. Anybody who knows the Repack and how to setup a test server knows that particular dummy isn't the level 60 or 63 ??Boss level target dummy.
Just take a look at the complete lack of glancing blows.

And that Warrior wont be affected by Glancing Blows?!

Let see how well you are informed about Holy Resistance and what you know about Glancing Blows , please enlighten us !

You know how much of White Swings reduced are going to change the same threat for Paladin?! Perhaps 5% of what you see, tell us now how much lower Rage Generation is going to be for a Warrior being affected by Glancing Blows and how much lower threat by White Swings is going to be thanks to Glancing Blows affected by Defiance and Def Stance?!

Now to debunk the very same Video :

646.7 TPS = 1k DPS handling and that's without :

1- Holy Shield
2- Retribution Aura
3- Blessing of Sanctuary
4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts

Did you know that with all of these (perhaps i missed some) , you can certainly improve threat 2-3 times higher than this threat on sitting target Dummy?!
Where did I abuse your poor english? Where did I cherrypick?

Well , you all the time cherrypick tiny stuffs , like "oh 20 seconds you spent between mobs" , "you wont be doing that rotation in raid" and more of the blah blah blah nonsense.

Like wth , why wouldn't i use what's best in my view, but i should use what was already proven as disaster your view?!

That's the cherrypicking stuffs you do!
Here's how a debate works - Evidence is stripped apart and criticized where it needs to be criticized. It isn't my fault that your "evidence" has multiple holes and skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance of genuine testing and real-world examples.

Let me tell you how debate work :

When you counter Evidence and criticize it , you also need to bring your own Evidence for your claims , it's not my fault that you bring no Evidence and then you cherry pick holes all the time in order to disapprove something which you can't even prove on your own!

The only skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance is what you are trying to do here, providing 0 evidence for your claims therefore you pin point and denigrating pure evidence given from someone.
Engineering gadgets are boosted by Defiance and Defensive Stance's base threat increase. As is demo shout, battle shout, thunderfury's proc, engineering shield's proc, thorns effects. Everything.

Maybe they are boosted, maybe not , i don't know, but from what i see , you are here to provide evidence that Engineering shield's procs , thorn effects are boosted by Defiance , would be happy if you do provide sources and evidence for such claim , otherwise you spill false information and manipulate.
Protection Paladins only have consecrate and Holy shield being boosted by Righteous Fury. Aside from that, engineering gadgets do regular threat.

I'd say it's about equal.

Retribution Aura,Holy Shield,Blessing of Sanctuary,Consecration not only being boosted by Righteous Fury , but also the extra 45% from your Engineering Bombs,Battle Shout and Thorns,Demo Shout wont be even half compare to how much threat Holy Spells are going to do.

Otherwise please prove us wrong with Video Evidence , the same thing Paladin vs Warrior doing and having Warrior doing equal to Paladin! Please do that and prove you claim before we even see you as serious manner.

Consecration itself is doing about 729 or more (depend on the spell damage) threat each 8 seconds , this exclude Spell Damage increasing it, exclude Sanctity Aura from Ret Paladin , this exclude Power Infusion etc. Which mean it does 91 TPS ,

while Thunderfury itself as Warrior :

formula to TF looks like this.

First get the threat per proc,

300 Nature damage, primary target -> Reduced by 10% in defensive stance, 270 base threat

Attack speed debuff, primary target -> ~90 base threat

NR debuff, all targets hit -> ~145 base threat

In total that's 505 base threat on the primary target per proc. Multiplied by defensive stance + defiance -> 505 * 1.3 * 1.15 = 754.975 threat per proc.

Now we need the proc chance, for now let's assume it is 25% (which was correct for 1.12 in retail).

Put that in our formula and we get,

754.975 x 0.25 x [(6 / 1.9) + 3] / 6 = 193.71 TPS

Which mean without defiance you are going to do 129 TPS

Congratulation you increased 64 Threat from Defiance and Def stance .

Now back to Dodge/Parry/Block you are going to have as Warrior and the Double Procs from SoR as Paladin.

SoR double proc Thunderfury is going to provide = 129x2 = 258 tps as Paladin > 193 tps as Warrior.

Now include the Retribution Aura,Blessing of Sanctuary,Holy Shield threat increased by Improved RF doing 90% more threat versus all the Engineering bombs and Thorns doing 45% for Warrior.

Especially that Holy Shield threat is not 90% more but 120% more Holy threat .
Paladins have it EASIER in terms of execution, but a warrior still has you beat due to overall higher levels of mitigation from the flat 10% damage reduction, kiting in the form of Piercing Howl when they do need it, and an unlimited resource.

Yeah sure, let us see Warrior doing this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i5taND1xbw

Or even this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPeUCinVckA

I can assure you that the gap between Paladins and Druid/Warrior will still be pretty big within raiding and progression content. Warriors and druids are absolutely going to be optimal, as they always have been.

To assure something ,you need to prove , right now you failed terrible with you proving something and you brought 0 proofs for that at all.
The damage is not 3-4 times lower. You looked at Esfand tanking on the beta at the level cap on there (With twinked and enchanted gear) compared to your supposedly "better" gear while you were levelling. Extremely misinforming and disingenuous like the majority of your "evidence."

And that's where i was waiting for you :

https://youtu.be/bPFEdkX_WY8?t=296

Footage from Beta Library Tanking at level 40 with poor Gear, mobs does 35-50 damage.

https://youtu.be/UWDqaOGWVME?t=1

This is me Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope Tanking at level 40 with good Gear, mobs does 100-120 damage.

Nothing better than pure Evidence.
You far overstate how much the rage difference will be. They will still have enough rage to spam sunder. Druids have hilariously few rage issues in raiding content due to maul costing 10 rage, or 7 with their idol.

Yeah sure, and Sunder spamming itself is going to hold any aggro right?! Not only it's poor threat, but will vanish under Paladin Pattern.
It has been 15 years. We've seen a lot of new developments with the advent of private servers for sure. I'll give you that.

However not one person has come forward with tangible [read; not you] and comprehensible evidence that Prot Paladins are optimal anywhere other than niche AoE situations?

Only because of the huge denial for them to be accepted or learn how to play and work in Raids, only because they never been allowed to do , it's the reason why such evidence was never brought there, does that mean such skilled Paladins didn't exist?! They did , but was rare, wont change the fact that Paladin is optimal , no matter how big denial is by People who often are trapped within false info about them.
Sure, Paladins can tank without consumables. But they fall short of Warriors and Druids, who can also use consumables to greatly increase the gap.

Warrior and Druid wont increase or better themselves much from using Consumes and Raid Buffs, Paladins will , unlike Druids and Warriors , Paladins scales with EVERYTHING , Druids and Warriors wont scale from SP !
Paladins take more damage due to using offspec gear.

Offspec Gear is not making Paladin weaker at all ,the damage taken would be almost the same with Warriors having a niche 10% extra from Def stance and reason why he win that race, but Armor Reduction,Block Value and Avoidance define how much damage is taken , where 10% from Def Stance is not that huge difference,while Druids are in even worse position than a Paladin due to eating Crits and no Blocks!
Paladins deal less damage due to being mana starved constantly.

Damage and Aggro are 2 different things, Paladin in both Aggro and Damage situation is going to defeat Warrior and the Video Itself is evidence that there is no Mana Starving , while Warrior is going to starve with Rage if it increase his Defense Gear!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo

646.7 TPS = 1k DPS handling and that's without :

1- Holy Shield
2- Retribution Aura
3- Blessing of Sanctuary
4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts

Did you know that with all of these (perhaps i missed some) , you can certainly improve threat 2-3 times higher than this threat on sitting target Dummy?!
Paladins deal less threat both due to mana and lacking spell damage on the only viable gear for tanking.

That's not true , Judge of Wisdom and Runes and Pots fix Mana issue , Arcane Elixir , Wizard Oil , SP Enchant on Weap and SP Weap is going to fix Spell Damage without 0 risk of Defensive gear loosing , there are no good defensive weapons except Thunderfury , which mean threat weapon is always best option for Paladin and having Def Weapon for certain situation to do "Weapon Swaps during the fight" ..
Every video you show is in guilds where debuffs are all over the place and you're allowed to get a massive threat lead, not to mention some of the videos of your threat tests showing multiple consumables and thunderfury on low level targets which proves nothing.

Like we give a shit about Debuffs on target, if target is easy killed without proper Debuff rotation , it's also evidence Paladin did the job very easy even without optimizing them either!

Same as every Warrior Video show is using shit tons of Buffs , while on my Videos you see barely 1-2 Consumes used and low to no Pots/Runes used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoAFJtXH70c&t=23s
Like this Guy.
There's a reason you're a bit of a meme in the tanking community.

At least i am not the one who spill lies and false information like Skarm and Cystheen or other Trolls like you who denigrate and hate Paladins all the time .

Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie

@killerduki

As you posted quite a few private server videos, especially the old 5 man videos without BIS gear do you know if that server you where playing on changed damage values of enemies? I watched that stratholme living run and was quite surprised at the incoming damage.

killerduki

As you posted quite a few private server videos, especially the old 5 man videos without BIS gear do you know if that server you where playing on changed damage values of enemies? I watched that stratholme living run and was quite surprised at the incoming damage.

The server you see is Nostalrius , which latest raid videos were from period during Nostalrius Elysium merge , some of videos was from other Pservers (those who are not progression ones like scourge event and naxx) .

But the regular ones are from pre 1.9 and during 1.9 patch Nostalrius ones, which later become elysium and ended up today as lightshope where majority people play and base from their opinion.

Original Classic is not pserver, but as someone who has played original Vanilla and cleared all raids there, i assure you i know how things work and are indeed easier than all bugged pservers who you as protection paladin cant tank thanks to bugs and non working/wrong working boss mechanics.

Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie

Neither i care, nor i am offended at all.

Its how these debates are when you have to deal with those who willing to live in ignorance and therefore are here to spill false info , lies and throwing eggs and stones with unfair criticism.

Without them backing up their claims, therefore they request things that are nearly impossible , imposing cherry pick arguing debates.

Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie

Neither i care, nor i am offended at all.

Its how these debates are when you have to deal with those who willing to live in ignorance and therefore are here to spill false info , lies and throwing eggs and stones with unfair criticism.

Without them backing up their claims, therefore they request things that are nearly impossible , imposing cherry pick arguing debates.

The criticism was valid and valid sources were given in opposition to your claims. At which time you threw a tantrum and began calling other content creators noobs in a fit of childish rage. You went on to start calling people on the forum names and lost control of your emotions... Paladin tanks are a fringe spec that wont be taken to most raids. They have irrefutable issues to overcome like the lack of a taunt, low mana pool and limited ranged options for pulling. They rely heavily on consumable usage and require a lot of min/maxing to be functional. As a tank, you are far more reliant on the competence of your fellow players than with either a feral or a warrior. A lot of your threat comes from being hit and you struggle getting threat back AFTER you have lost it in comparison to the other two tanks. The spec is suboptimal. In regards to OP's question, this spec is NOT something that a casual player should attempt to main.

A great example of how we know prot paladins are awful is that there are very few of them. The population of any given spec is correlated to the performance of that spec. The cumulative time and experience that millions of players have invested into the game would surmise that prot pallys are not good tanks. One outlier claiming the opposite is not a compelling counter argument. You have linked videos of taking this suboptimal spec and forcing it to work while being supported by a group of enablers. We acknowledge that this spec CAN work (which was never in question to begin with). It is not optimal and it is not worth playing for the majority of users. We have outlined our opposition to the spec and linked videos of creators who echo the same concerns that we do.

We look forward to monitoring your journey through Classic and hope you will keep us updated. I would be very interested in seeing you main tank in a progressive raid on the first few nights of MC. I would prefer an unedited video of your entire MC run, from the first pull to the last on your guilds first attempt in MC. Before you have trained your team to account for your own short-comings as a paladin tank. Videos like this will show us how valid this spec is in contrast to the other options available. We are only a few months way. You will be able to prove us wrong soon.... ..... ...... or not.

They have irrefutable issues to overcome like the lack of a taunt, low mana pool and limited ranged options for pulling. They rely heavily on consumable usage and require a lot of min/maxing to be functional.

TL:DR

How does that explain the evidence which you ignored and you was disapproved already 3 pages backward ?

https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=75
So, the "extreme minimum" to tank raid bosses is apparently a Flask, four Elixir-type consumables, 16 stamina food, full stack of Runes and Major mana potions. Care to explain @Stfuppercut how was killerduki able to tank raid bosses in his videos NOT using all these listed consumables? For example his Magmadar video, where he's using a single elixir from the list, no flask, no other consumables, no potion, no dark rune.

But i guess Psojed was right when he wrote there :
Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.

@Stfuppercut i know you are great with good English writing skills to re write what you been disapproved for thousand of times.

You are repeating again the same "Huge Creative Wall of Text" filled with lies and false information , so heading all around and re explaining to you again and again something you are going to ignore (And then repeating the same own Huge Creative Wall of Text) , with my poor English is just wasting my time .

I'd rather let people re read the previous Pages and see how your lies are repeating all over again all the time.
Not going to waste my time Quoting with answers toward every single bit of your "wall of text" false information.

You are repeating again the same "Huge Creative Wall of Text" filled with lies and false information , so heading all around and re explaining to you again and again something you are going to ignore (And then repeating the same own Huge Creative Wall of Text)

"Huge Creative Wall of Text"? You mean your last post from Page 6?

And what about the solid debunking of your claims of Pre-raid BiS blue gear from Page 5 that you completely ignored and avoided?
with my poor English is just wasting my time

You are on an English forum speaking in English. It is your choice to be here, and it is not any of our responsibilities to take it easier on you for not being as fluent as other members. It could, however, be your choice to leave and join a forum that shares your native tongue if you feel it would allow your ideas to be shared properly.

Insisting on being present in an English forum where you believe yourself to be at a disadvantage and whine about it just reeks of a desire to be seen and known by the English-speaking WoW community which is likely much larger than your own with the lion's share of potential viewership.

I am not interested in your desires to be famous or a WoW streamer, and don't care that you feel you have put yourself at a disadvantage to achieve this.

You are repeating again the same "Huge Creative Wall of Text" filled with lies and false information , so heading all around and re explaining to you again and again something you are going to ignore (And then repeating the same own Huge Creative Wall of Text)

"Huge Creative Wall of Text"? You mean your last post from Page 6?

And what about the solid debunking of your claims of Pre-raid BiS blue gear from Page 5 that you completely ignored and avoided?
with my poor English is just wasting my time

You are on an English forum speaking in English. It is your choice to be here, and it is not any of our responsibilities to take it easier on you for not being as fluent as other members. It could, however, be your choice to leave and join a forum that shares your native tongue if you feel it would allow your ideas to be shared properly.

Insisting on being present in an English forum where you believe yourself to be at a disadvantage and whine about it just reeks of a desire to be seen and known by the English-speaking WoW community which is likely much larger than your own with the lion's share of potential viewership.

I am not interested in your desires to be famous or a WoW streamer, and don't care that you feel you have put yourself at a disadvantage to achieve this.

And what about the solid debunking of your claims of Pre-raid BiS blue gear from Page 5 that you completely ignored and avoided?

Your debunking was debunked , but you still ignored it:

Quoting it:

Pre Raid BiS Blues on progression night , NO THUNDERFURY , (Even Skarm using shit tons of Consumes in his Videos despite him wearing a Tier 3 Equipment,so not using Potion is also telling that you play double standards here and you are here for trolling only), Pre Raid group and Green geared group!

Garr - Only Armor Potion used (unlike Skarm with shit lots of Consumes and T3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IPir_IouQ8

Gehenas - Didn't use Potions for mana at all , just Elixir for SP and Food (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vQ_TnB6XQ

Lucifron - Armor scroll , Food buff and SP Elixir , used only once Demonic Rune because Curse from Boss drained my mana, but that's all (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe6CrUoLB58

Majordomo - SP Elixir and only at beginning GFPP , no Runes ,no Pots used (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDfyrB726Q

Your Ignorance is so strong and demands so big with nothing to offer as a result to prove your claims!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSrHztmOwq8&t=14s

Gear used, which you ignored again and repeating the same shits again. (only difference is Flurry Axe using which i bough from AH) .
You are on an English forum speaking in English. It is your choice to be here, and it is not any of our responsibilities to take it easier on you for not being as fluent as other members. It could, however, be your choice to leave and join a forum that shares your native tongue if you feel it would allow your ideas to be shared properly.

Insisting on being present in an English forum where you believe yourself to be at a disadvantage and whine about it just reeks of a desire to be seen and known by the English-speaking WoW community which is likely much larger than your own with the lion's share of potential viewership.

I am not interested in your desires to be famous or a WoW streamer, and don't care that you feel you have put yourself at a disadvantage to achieve this.

I don't care about your Racism .

You should say "Thank you for communicating in English as NON-English foreigner" .
Something that you would never do in my language!

What a lovely addition to our little community. So glad to have this new member onboard. This is typically where I would rip him apart in text, but for fear of being banned for shunning/teasing such an individual I'll hold my tongue. I would hate to oose any assholery. Lets just let the new guy do his thing and act completely socially retarded while we all remain calm and cordial.

Your debunking was debunked , but you still ignored it:

Quoting it:

You admitted yourself in an earlier video that the only gear difference you had was Thunderfury. You had everything else, including AQ gear.

Even now on all of the videos you linked I can see https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard easily at a glance in all four raid videos (AQ gear). The geared state of your raid is quite visible as well.

A final video of you sitting outside the gates of IF with much less gear isn't going to change any of that.
I don't care about your Racism .

You should say "Thank you for communicating in English as NON-English foreigner" .
Something that you would never do in my language!

I have never specified my race, nor anything about race at all in this thread. Furthermore, I am not "English".

Teebling I believe Killerduki has gone too far with his slander. I would like to formally petition for a ban.

I think what is safe to say killerduki is that if it is so important to you to prove paladins are such great main tanks in raids, you better rethink your strategies. Posting videos from which gear and content are not realistic, raging, namecalling and off-topic nonsense just don't give you a very strong case. Nor does it make you any credible.

Calling someone racist because of a language issue you yourself brought up is just... I have no words.

As big a contribution as any, at this point.