Btw., A small tidbit I noticed in one of your posts.
Why would a pally use limited invulnerability potion? Dude, we have two bubbles with exactly the same effect. /facepalm
It was not clear to me if Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield are aggro wipes or temporary aggro redirections. I tried the comments on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278/blessing-of-protection#comments but it's just everyone asking the same thing. However a comment on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield#comments does claim it is an aggro wipe.
On the post for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/limited-invulnerability-potion#comments "devindred" says:
Note that the aggro reduction is 100% for the duration of the invulnerability buff, but you regain your aggro immediately after the buff fades. It acts like Fade and not Vanish.
This is still quite useful as it gives the tank a nice window to regain aggro over the mob/boss.
Therefore it is uncertain to me if Blessing of Protection is as good as Limited Invulnerability (things are looking quite bad for Divine Shield), but Limited Invulnerability is solid.
Wearing raid gear only implies that his gear is not pre-raid and that his guild works, since they can actually clear content.
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
can be proven wrong by watching his vids without the gear.
I have a very long post showing that in the videos where he claims to not have gear he actually does. Everything but Thunderfury and gear from raids he could not possibly have on a progression raid.
So there are no videos without gear as far as I know, and taking his word for it after he intentionally mislead me would be foolish. That gear and the gear of his raid is more than going to make up for mana problems on what many consider the easiest raid of vanilla.
killerduki Unfortunately after all the solid debunking I did on your claim of pre-raid BiS only, I cannot take your videos or claims at face value. Until you do a pre-raid BiS video where you inspect all gear pieces prior to the fight all your claims of pre-raid BiS are suspect. There is no rush and you can do this on the release of Classic, which is ideal because then there will also not be a question about how much gear your guild may possess in that short timeframe. (To do one now would heavily imply your raid has the exact same gear AQ+.)
And unfortunately that is their Goal , to have threads like this (who advocate Protection Paladins) locked,deleted or removed.
So anytime there is any thread pop up like this, they will go for it until it goes locked.
I do not appreciate this unfounded accusation and it is ad hominem attacks (implied or outright) like this that is why Teebs is threatening to lock the thread.
My goal in participating in this thread is to give fair warning to prospective players of the potential realities they will face if they try to roll a Protection Paladin. If that is truly their goal they may do it, and I would certainly not stop you from doing it as you clearly love it. However, if someone had warned me back in Vanilla, I would have never rolled what I did and I would have been happier for it.
Why in each video is there three stacks of Judgement of Wisdom on the boss?
https://imgur.com/a/srnOzkY
Not only that, but a host of inefficient debuffs. We can diagnose that the raid groups that Killerduki has ran with aren't exactly the brightest bunch. It's not difficult to hold aggro against people using suboptimal debuffs and assumedly rotations.
We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.
I'd also like to go back to another video of Duki's to point out some hypocrisy;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8R8jFndSE
You say you're spamming max rank consecrate. You're doing this on mobs out in the open world, then taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs. Not only this, you're keeping up Judgment of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, not refreshing Seal of Wisdom for every judgment, not using judgment on cooldown as you would with Seal of the Righteous, not using Holy Shield as you would in a raiding environment. You also have a weapon buff active, which we can assume is mana oil given all the misdirection in the video.
The problem with Killerduki is he takes small facets of Prot Paladin tanking and shows them in a skewed vacuum in which he then touts to "prove" his point.
Paladins are perfectly VIABLE as tanks, but they are nowhere near optimal outside of some niche AoE scenarios where engineering would do the trick anyway. They are not, however, on the same level as Warrior or Druid tanks, otherwise we'd see a vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40man raid progression environment.
We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.
On the Flurry Axe Video he talks to a user called "Jonathan Pond" about this.
How do you have 3 wisdoms up simultaneously?
And responds:
Jonathan Pond during vanilla you could stack judge by different ranks. Probably was an exploit or forgotten mechanic known by the community back then. It was reported and seen as legit.
Only thing to wait and see if blizzard is going to keep it or hotfix with legacy releasing. They already mention about fixing known bugs, but which ones we dont know yet.
Being reported and seen as legit is an unsubstantiated claim as is it even being possible (and it is certainly not optimal, having Ranks 1 and 2 on doesn't even double the effect of Rank 3), but what really matters is if it's possible in the beta or not. Any ideas or did your reply already cover differing ranks?
Btw., A small tidbit I noticed in one of your posts.
Why would a pally use limited invulnerability potion? Dude, we have two bubbles with exactly the same effect. /facepalm
It was not clear to me if Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield are aggro wipes or temporary aggro redirections. I tried the comments on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278/blessing-of-protection#comments but it's just everyone asking the same thing. However a comment on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield#comments does claim it is an aggro wipe.
On the post for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/limited-invulnerability-potion#comments "devindred" says:
Note that the aggro reduction is 100% for the duration of the invulnerability buff, but you regain your aggro immediately after the buff fades. It acts like Fade and not Vanish.
This is still quite useful as it gives the tank a nice window to regain aggro over the mob/boss.
Therefore it is uncertain to me if Blessing of Protection is as good as Limited Invulnerability (things are looking quite bad for Divine Shield), but Limited Invulnerability is solid.
First you have no idea about how Paladin Abilities work , then you talk about Paladins as an Expert...
It was not clear to me if Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield are aggro wipes or temporary aggro redirections. I tried the comments on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278/blessing-of-protection#comments but it's just everyone asking the same thing. However a comment on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield#comments does claim it is an aggro wipe.
On the post for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/limited-invulnerability-potion#comments "devindred" says:
Note that the aggro reduction is 100% for the duration of the invulnerability buff, but you regain your aggro immediately after the buff fades. It acts like Fade and not Vanish.
This is still quite useful as it gives the tank a nice window to regain aggro over the mob/boss.
Therefore it is uncertain to me if Blessing of Protection is as good as Limited Invulnerability (things are looking quite bad for Divine Shield), but Limited Invulnerability is solid.
Well the most upvoted comment on that Divine shield link says "Lets say you get feared, or stunned, just use Divine Shield, then immediately cancel the spell by right clicking it and resume aggro. Not bad." If they wiped aggro, he wouldn't be able to do that :)
I can confirm that both bubbles work the same way as the potion. They temporarily remove all your threat and threat comes back when the duration ends. So basically all Paladins have a 3-5min CD ability that functions as a Limited Invulnerability pot and can use it on anyone from the raid.
You can also use Divine Shield to kite mobs between tank and 2nd in threat for up to 12 seconds thanks to this :mrgreen:
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
Dude, it doesn't matter.
Tankadin spec isn't built around collecting raid gear before you start tanking OR around collecting raid gear for your raid people before you start actually doing your job. I'm saying, you don't require a certain threshold of DPS or HPS from the raid to be able to tank raids. Tankadin was here long before duki started playing one. If you really played one back then as you wrote in your post, then you should know this. I also speak here from my own experience with Tankadin, not just from watching some of killerduki's videos. And I believe this should be obvious from just thinking about tanking in general:
Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage. In theory, anyone can tank as long as the healers can keep up the healing. But a caster won't be dodging, parrying or blocking any damage. Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Rogues and Hunters are more suited for this job than the caster classes. Out of these, Hunters, Rogues and Druids can only Dodge and Parry, but cannot Block and cannot stack Defense up to def cap.
Rogues and Hunters can temporarily reach very high levels of avoidance, so in theory they could tank some bosses, but not all of them and kill speed is key, so they are ranked last.
Shamans can Dodge, Parry and Block, but also cannot stack Defense up to def cap (correct me if I'm wrong here). I have yet to see a Shaman tanking a raid boss, but I guess they do it less effectively than a Druid due to Mail armor and no inherent boosts to armor and HP.
Druids compensate their lack of Defense with huge inherent armor and HP boost, which in turn allows them to overcome their shortcomings and tank most bosses, if not all of them.
Warriors and Paladins are the only two classes that can Dodge, Parry, Block, reach avoidance cap AND reach def cap, while also wearing Plate armor and having inherent armor and avoidance boosts from talents.
Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.
Wearing raid gear only implies that his gear is not pre-raid and that his guild works, since they can actually clear content.
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
can be proven wrong by watching his vids without the gear.
I have a very long post showing that in the videos where he claims to not have gear he actually does. Everything but Thunderfury and gear from raids he could not possibly have on a progression raid.
So there are no videos without gear as far as I know, and taking his word for it after he intentionally mislead me would be foolish. That gear and the gear of his raid is more than going to make up for mana problems on what many consider the easiest raid of vanilla.
@killerduki Unfortunately after all the solid debunking I did on your claim of pre-raid BiS only, I cannot take your videos or claims at face value. Until you do a pre-raid BiS video where you inspect all gear pieces prior to the fight all your claims of pre-raid BiS are suspect. There is no rush and you can do this on the release of Classic, which is ideal because then there will also not be a question about how much gear your guild may possess in that short timeframe. (To do one now would heavily imply your raid has the exact same gear AQ+.)
And unfortunately that is their Goal , to have threads like this (who advocate Protection Paladins) locked,deleted or removed.
So anytime there is any thread pop up like this, they will go for it until it goes locked.
I do not appreciate this unfounded accusation and it is ad hominem attacks (implied or outright) like this that is why Teebs is threatening to lock the thread.
My goal in participating in this thread is to give fair warning to prospective players of the potential realities they will face if they try to roll a Protection Paladin. If that is truly their goal they may do it, and I would certainly not stop you from doing it as you clearly love it. However, if someone had warned me back in Vanilla, I would have never rolled what I did and I would have been happier for it.
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
Yeah sure, you have no idea who the Tank was for the content we cleared, regardless of the fact that i was Guild Leader in my own Guild and been Raid Leading , Guild Leading and Main Tanking!
The Guild was formed during Nostalrius period , which mean Nostalrius didn't have AQ released yet and yet you claim stuffs you have no fucking clue about .
I have a very long post showing that in the videos where he claims to not have gear he actually does. Everything but Thunderfury and gear from raids he could not possibly have on a progression raid.
So there are no videos without gear as far as I know, and taking his word for it after he intentionally mislead me would be foolish. That gear and the gear of his raid is more than going to make up for mana problems on what many consider the easiest raid of vanilla.
killerduki Unfortunately after all the solid debunking I did on your claim of pre-raid BiS only, I cannot take your videos or claims at face value. Until you do a pre-raid BiS video where you inspect all gear pieces prior to the fight all your claims of pre-raid BiS are suspect. There is no rush and you can do this on the release of Classic, which is ideal because then there will also not be a question about how much gear your guild may possess in that short timeframe. (To do one now would heavily imply your raid has the exact same gear AQ+.)
https://youtu.be/vSrHztmOwq8?t=14
And this is what you are demanding , to show you my current gear for Progression , where only difference was Weapon which i bough from Auction House (Flurry Axe).
Debunked you now , because i see you are here only to cherry pick tiny stuffs and shit on Paladins only!
The other VIdeo where it shows my gear was "After these Videos was recorded" , you can see dates when the Videos was uploaded on Youtube as evidence even!
Its not a skyrocking science to explain that, but certainly you will pretend like it is.
ZG and MC has been progressing together as Guild , which later we went to AQ20 only , but that's it, we didn't do AQ20 before we cleared MC with me being as Main Tank , for the main fact that AQ20 didn't release during that period, but during Progression it did release.
First you have no idea about how Paladin Abilities work , then you talk about Paladins as an Expert...
Yes, I am not an expert, therefore I go get quotes from those who do know instead of claiming something on my own.
It appears that Blessing of Protection does work like Limited Invulnerability from here however it is not preferred to use it as a Limited Invulnerability potion, but instead as a pseudo-taunt as seen in the quote below (of which Warriors have a real taunt and on a much shorter CD).
From BDevils:
Blessing of Protection is also a pseudo taunt. It wipes the aggro off the target temporarily until it ends so the mob will run back to you and, hopefully, you can regain aggro.
However as for Divine Shield it appears to be a complete threat wipe.
Mana Pots (2 min cd) + BoP (3 min cd with talents) vs Taunt(10 second cd)+Limited Invulnerability (2 min cd)
I believe it is clear that Warrior comes out the winner here without having to choose and with shorter CDs.
Please give verifiable quotes to match my own instead of attacking me and my expertise.
EDIT: I was writing this post when Psojed replied to me but I am leaving it up anyway.
Yeah sure, you have no idea who the Tank was for the content we cleared, regardless of the fact that i was Guild Leader in my own Guild and been Raid Leading , Guild Leading and Main Tanking!
The Guild was formed during Nostalrius period , which mean Nostalrius didn't have AQ released yet and yet you claim stuffs you have no fucking clue about .
PvP highlight videos only show what a player wants people to see - them winning - not ganks gone wrong.
Your videos are no different, and I fail to see what a video of you dueling outside IF is supposed to prove. Your video is blurry, there is no raid going on, and in the comments of the original Flurry Axe video you freely admit and link to AQ gear you are wearing.
Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.
Well the most upvoted comment on that Divine shield link says "Lets say you get feared, or stunned, just use Divine Shield, then immediately cancel the spell by right clicking it and resume aggro. Not bad." If they wiped aggro, he wouldn't be able to do that :)
I can confirm that both bubbles work the same way as the potion. They temporarily remove all your threat and threat comes back when the duration ends. So basically all Paladins have a 3-5min CD ability that functions as a Limited Invulnerability pot and can use it on anyone from the raid.
You can also use Divine Shield to kite mobs between tank and 2nd in threat for up to 12 seconds thanks to this
Though I am still doubtful (as the poster merely implies he retains rather that rebuilds aggro), I will amend it for you.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield (5 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278/blessing-of-protection (3 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13444/major-mana-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/free-action-potion (2 min CD)
vs.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=18499/berserker-rage (30 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=355/taunt (10 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/limited-invulnerability-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12962/iron-will (Passive 15% stun resist), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/free-action-potion (2 min cd)
Free Action Potion will be popped situationally when called for and Divine Shield's ability to purge a stun would not be used except in 5 mans.
I am not certain if Paladin could use Free Action due to the mana pot requirement but I have thrown it in there for you.
It appears that Warrior comes out on top again regardless.
Also, it is not ideal to have mobs go between 1st and 2nd threat as often 2nd threat is a DPS and will likely die or be in very big trouble. Using Limited Invuln. is better than a dead tank, but ideally the tank is hit and no one else unless the fight specifically calls for it.
Why in each video is there three stacks of Judgement of Wisdom on the boss?
https://imgur.com/a/srnOzkY
Not only that, but a host of inefficient debuffs. We can diagnose that the raid groups that Killerduki has ran with aren't exactly the brightest bunch. It's not difficult to hold aggro against people using suboptimal debuffs and assumedly rotations.
We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.
I'd also like to go back to another video of Duki's to point out some hypocrisy;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8R8jFndSE
You say you're spamming max rank consecrate. You're doing this on mobs out in the open world, then taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs. Not only this, you're keeping up Judgment of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, not refreshing Seal of Wisdom for every judgment, not using judgment on cooldown as you would with Seal of the Righteous, not using Holy Shield as you would in a raiding environment. You also have a weapon buff active, which we can assume is mana oil given all the misdirection in the video.
The problem with Killerduki is he takes small facets of Prot Paladin tanking and shows them in a skewed vacuum in which he then touts to "prove" his point.
Paladins are perfectly VIABLE as tanks, but they are nowhere near optimal outside of some niche AoE scenarios where engineering would do the trick anyway. They are not, however, on the same level as Warrior or Druid tanks, otherwise we'd see a vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40man raid progression environment.
Why in each video is there three stacks of Judgement of Wisdom on the boss?
https://imgur.com/a/srnOzkY
Not only that, but a host of inefficient debuffs. We can diagnose that the raid groups that Killerduki has ran with aren't exactly the brightest bunch. It's not difficult to hold aggro against people using suboptimal debuffs and assumedly rotations.
We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.
Point out that finger on Nostalrius/Elysium/Lightshope , not to me, it was how servers had stuffs wrong scripted , does that mean i will suffer with mana if i use none of them or there are going to be any problems without multiple of them stacking?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk
This Video is evidence of that, only Judgement of the Crusader there, no stacking , no wisdoms etc etc and still doing the same job easy and properly without Runes/Pots used or extra buffs used with exception of one Elixir which wont make any difference at all.
I'd also like to go back to another video of Duki's to point out some hypocrisy;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8R8jFndSE
You say you're spamming max rank consecrate. You're doing this on mobs out in the open world, then taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs.
Yeah , i am taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs because there are no mobs in 1 spot or my health will go down if i use it on multiple mobs with more than 20 seconds, i am not in Raid Group where Healer is going to Heal me all the time and i am not attacking Elite which is going to increase the duration at the mob attacking it.
Not only this, you're keeping up Judgment of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, not refreshing Seal of Wisdom for every judgment,
And this is proof about you talking stuffs you have no clue about ,first of all Judgements are refreshed from Auto Attacks , not from Judging it all the time, so Judging wont make difference, all you need is to re seal after 30 seconds which is imo 0 changes from the mana , especially that you are going to regen much more mana than spending it by attacking the same target.
not using judgment on cooldown as you would with Seal of the Righteous, not using Holy Shield as you would in a raiding environment. You also have a weapon buff active, which we can assume is mana oil given all the misdirection in the video.
The whole discussion of Skarm was about 5 mans and AOE Parts where he said about "you can't spam max rank consecrate or you will have mana issues" .
What oil is been used doesn't matter at all , it is evidence that you can possibly spam Max Rank Consecrations without being OOM at all for infinite time.
Also in Raid environment against Single Target i am not going to use or less likely to use Consecrations for single target, it is highly inefficient and it does poor threat against Single Target , as for AOE part Seal/Judge of Wisdom as shown on Video is going to work perfectly.
For Raids this is how mana work for 7 minutes, what you clearly ignoring in this case :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo&t=42s
If fight which last for 7 minutes doesn't make me OOM in Raid scenario , then your point has been wrong and the Video is just evidence of you being wrong.
No Multiple Judgements stacking to keep you informed and you can see that in the Video!
The problem with Killerduki is he takes small facets of Prot Paladin tanking and shows them in a skewed vacuum in which he then touts to "prove" his point.
It's not me who shows them in a skewed vacuum , it's you and overall Protection Paladin haters who demand and cherry pick all the time things , despite of what was already proven , you still are going to cherry pick more and more of it (abusing my poor english too in order to prove your point).
Paladins are perfectly VIABLE as tanks, but they are nowhere near optimal outside of some niche AoE scenarios where engineering would do the trick anyway.They are not, however, on the same level as Warrior or Druid tanks,
Engineering is not going to do more Threat than spamming Consecration Max Ranks , not even close to it for AoE
With Classic who is going to provide 14% parry haste , with Classic who is going to have Mobs and Bosses doing 3-4 times lower damage than Private Servers , with Classic who is not going to have Bugs which makes Warrior overpowered and Paladin underpowered , not only your Warrior and Druids are not going to be optimal , but they are going to be shit (with exception of Druids for threat abusing MCP farming the "legit and clever mechanic abuse").
Now imagine in Classic with 14% parry and Parry haste from Bosses = Warrior Shield Blocks are going to be swallowed immediately before next one appear and then you are going to be victim of Crushing Blows and perhaps Crits (if not def cap), while Paladin Holy shield have longer duration and you can always parry/dodge/miss in between so your Holy Shield wont be removed like your Shield Block.
Now imagine in Classic with Warriors taking lesser damage due to Mobs and Bosses hitting lesser than Pservers = Warrior Rage generation is going to be shit , which is going to make them loose very easy aggro and do extremely poor threat , while Paladin wont be affected by this.
Now imagine in Classic with Warriors not regenerating enough Rage due to lower damage output thanks to how Glancing Blows we all witness in Beta = poor aggro.
Now imagine in Classic where Warriors are not going to regenerate Rage from certain types of Debuffs and certain types of AoE unlike Pservers where they gain Rage from it = poor aggro.
otherwise we'd see a vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40man raid progression environment.
Only because there is lack of info about Paladins , only because all the fearmongering spread around about Paladins , only because all "noobs Streamers" like Skarm pretend they are experts and telling people how Paladins are terrible , only because all "noobs website Guide Bloggers Tankadins" like Cystheen pretend they are experts and telling people Paladins can't tank without thousand of Consumes and only because Trolls like you Brainwashing everyone with lies and false info about Paladins and denigrate those like me who try to help Protection Paladin fans and community.
That's the reason why you can't see vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40 man raid progression environment!
Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.
Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.
Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.
Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.
Killerduki
Linking the video where you and your raid is MC/ZG/BWL/AQ geared taking on Magmadar is not going to prove anything at this point.
Likewise, in the 2nd video you linked just now you are not casting all your spells as https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20928/holy-shield is very obviously not going on CD.
Trolls like you
I see no evidence of trolling.
lies and false info
Your claims of pre-raid BiS and progression raiding very untrue.
Yeah sure, you have no idea who the Tank was for the content we cleared, regardless of the fact that i was Guild Leader in my own Guild and been Raid Leading , Guild Leading and Main Tanking!
The Guild was formed during Nostalrius period , which mean Nostalrius didn't have AQ released yet and yet you claim stuffs you have no fucking clue about .
PvP highlight videos only show what a player wants people to see - them winning - not ganks gone wrong.
Your videos are no different, and I fail to see what a video of you dueling outside IF is supposed to prove. Your video is blurry, there is no raid going on, and in the comments of the original Flurry Axe video you freely admit and link to AQ gear you are wearing.
Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.
Well the most upvoted comment on that Divine shield link says "Lets say you get feared, or stunned, just use Divine Shield, then immediately cancel the spell by right clicking it and resume aggro. Not bad." If they wiped aggro, he wouldn't be able to do that :)
I can confirm that both bubbles work the same way as the potion. They temporarily remove all your threat and threat comes back when the duration ends. So basically all Paladins have a 3-5min CD ability that functions as a Limited Invulnerability pot and can use it on anyone from the raid.
You can also use Divine Shield to kite mobs between tank and 2nd in threat for up to 12 seconds thanks to this
Though I am still doubtful (as the poster merely implies he retains rather that rebuilds aggro), I will amend it for you.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield (5 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278/blessing-of-protection (3 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13444/major-mana-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/free-action-potion (2 min CD)
vs.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=18499/berserker-rage (30 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=355/taunt (10 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/limited-invulnerability-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12962/iron-will (Passive 15% stun resist), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/free-action-potion (2 min cd)
Free Action Potion will be popped situationally when called for and Divine Shield's ability to purge a stun would not be used except in 5 mans.
I am not certain if Paladin could use Free Action due to the mana pot requirement but I have thrown it in there for you.
It appears that Warrior comes out on top again regardless.
Also, it is not ideal to have mobs go between 1st and 2nd threat as often 2nd threat is a DPS and will likely die or be in very big trouble. Using Limited Invuln. is better than a dead tank, but ideally the tank is hit and no one else unless the fight specifically calls for it.
PvP highlight videos only show what a player wants people to see - them winning - not ganks gone wrong.
Your videos are no different, and I fail to see what a video of you dueling outside IF is supposed to prove. Your video is blurry, there is no raid going on, and in the comments of the original Flurry Axe video you freely admit and link to AQ gear you are wearing.
Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.
You certainly wasn't there to know how my Guild did progress, but you are here only with Assumptions!
Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.
I didn't even claim that i did AQ20 before MC and we did AQ20 after MC , Benediction is only Evidence that was claimed from our Progression and it drop from this Boss :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDfyrB726Q
Evidence that we were doing it during Progression too!
This is also how everyone was excited of our First Kills and when we were surprised of having Legendary items drop :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfkOAchHOWM
Read the Chat and hear other guys sound on Discord.
And you can see from my Channel how our Progression were moving forward along with Date Uploads with the Videos as evidence that we were moving as Progression step by step :
https://www.youtube.com/user/killerduki/videos
Also keep in mind Blizzard was clear with Official Blue Post : MC and ZG are going to be released at the same time , which is making even easier than what we could do on these Pservers where ZG wasn't released with MC!
Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.
Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.
Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.
Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.
Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.
Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIfwHZ5C9I&t=1s
This is what makes you wrong.
Killerduki
Linking the video where you and your raid is MC/ZG/BWL/AQ geared taking on Magmadar is not going to prove anything at this point.
Likewise, in the 2nd video you linked just now you are not casting all your spells as https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20928/holy-shield is very obviously not going on CD.
Trolls like you
I see no evidence of trolling.
lies and false info
Your claims of pre-raid BiS and progression raiding very untrue.
Linking the video where you and your raid is MC/ZG/BWL/AQ geared taking on Magmadar is not going to prove anything at this point.
Yet you provide 0 evidence of anyone using BWL and AQ40 Gear in the Video during Magmadar fight , but you claim something that doesn't exist and lying!
Why not MC/ZG Gear?! It is part of Gearing during Progression and that's it, but you spin over Magmadar which is easy boss ignoring all other 4 Bosses who was shown with Progression Pre Raid Gear and was main Tanked by me as Protection Paladin without using ZG or AQ20 Gear!
Likewise, in the 2nd video you linked just now you are not casting all your spells as Holy Shield is very obviously not going on CD.
I don't really have a need to cast all my spells ,i just swap Consecration with Holy Shield and that's it , Holy Shield is better choice for Raids than Consecration , but i could use them both either!
https://youtu.be/4SDfyrB726Q?t=81
And this is evidence for that!
You certainly wasn't there to know how my Guild did progress, but you are here only with Assumptions!
I certainly was not there when your guild first cleared MC - if that even happened without already having gear from other raids. That's why the burden of proof is on you to prove it did not happen without being overgeared for the raid.
I didn't even claim that i did AQ20 before MC and we did AQ20 after MC , Benediction is only Evidence that was claimed from our Progression and it drop from this Boss :
There is a https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction showing not even five seconds into the video and you appear to already have https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19913/bloodsoaked-greaves , not to mention that OT has his https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar and... this is probably the exact same day you took the Magmadar video.
Evidence that we were doing it during Progression too!
This is also how everyone was excited of our First Kills and when we were surprised of having Legendary items drop :
Harder to see you in this post but the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller are quite obvious at a glance. Likely same time period as other videos with just as much gear.
Also keep in mind Blizzard was clear with Official Blue Post : MC and ZG are going to be released at the same time , which is making even easier than what we could do on these Pservers where ZG wasn't released with MC!
Unless these are out of date, MC is Phase 1 and ZG is Phase 4. Hardly at the same time.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/classic-content-plan/120346
https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=850&hilit=everything+we+know+so+far#content
Yet you provide 0 evidence of anyone using BWL and AQ40 Gear in the Video during Magmadar fight , but you claim something that doesn't exist and lying!
Why not MC/ZG Gear?! It is part of Gearing during Progression and that's it, but you spin over Magmadar which is easy boss ignoring all other 4 Bosses who was shown with Progression Pre Raid Gear and was main Tanked by me as Protection Paladin without using ZG or AQ20 Gear!
You already have Thunderfury in the Magmadar Video, which means that you have all the gear below and more in your raid as time has passed and allowed you and your raid to collect even more gear.
There is clearly a Priest in the background of the flurry axe video wearing Benediction and this is not a Progression raid as that item's requisite quest item drops from a later boss. Even with a blurry video that obscures most of the gear, I can still see it.
Upon closer look there are at least two https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction , a https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar on one of the OT's (only requires ony, but still, the group isn't hurting for gear), and what appears to be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller glowing green on a mage in the back.
And that's just the stuff that glows. With ZG gear equipped that means that BWL is out and they could have gear from there that I just can't see due to non-glow. They've certainly had ample time to clear a whole lot of MC and get a whole lot of drops.
But wait. There's more.
In the comments of the Flurry Axe Video someone asks Killerduki what his gear and spec is, and Killerduki links a video clip and says "This was the Gear used, only difference is that in Garr i didn't use or had Thunderfury , so i used Flurry Axe."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ustXwpAo9DM&feature=youtu.be&t=2538 )
One of the Pieces is https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21479/gauntlets-of-the-immovable from AQ and his items have ZG enchants.
He did not link his shield but it appears to be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard from Baron Kazum - Also not attainable.
Items he could not have for preraid:
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21503/belt-of-the-sand-reaver
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19888/overlords-embrace
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18406/onyxia-blood-talisman
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19913/bloodsoaked-greaves
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21479/gauntlets-of-the-immovable
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard
ZG Enchants + Any other enchants that weren't released yet
Things he could have had:
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12620/enchanted-thorium-helm#comments (Mouses too quick for me to get a solid look but likely has this item)
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11927/legplates-of-the-eternal-guardian
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13091/medallion-of-grand-marshal-morris
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18754/fel-hardened-bracers
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10795/drakeclaw-band x2
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11810/force-of-will
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14552/stockade-pauldrons
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14624/deathbone-chestplate
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=871/flurry-axe
Now also keep in mind that not only does he have AQ gear, but his Raid has AQ gear and everything in between.
Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS
Debunked.
Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.
Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.
Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.
Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.
Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.
Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIfwHZ5C9I&t=1s
This is what makes you wrong.
You posted a video showing PreBIS and Raid gear proving my point that Paladins use specifically off-tier gear [Tanking Plate off-spec pieces which are worse than Warrior Tier Gear] to say.... that my point is wrong?
You prove everybody right and then say they're wrong. Lmao.
Yeah , i am taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs because there are no mobs in 1 spot or my health will go down if i use it on multiple mobs with more than 20 seconds, i am not in Raid Group where Healer is going to Heal me all the time and i am not attacking Elite which is going to increase the duration at the mob attacking it.
You do realize I was pointing out that you're having 20+ seconds of mana regeneration between the mobs? Come on.
And this is proof about you talking stuffs you have no clue about ,first of all Judgements are refreshed from Auto Attacks , not from Judging it all the time, so Judging wont make difference, all you need is to re seal after 30 seconds which is imo 0 changes from the mana , especially that you are going to regen much more mana than spending it by attacking the same target.
And in a raiding environment you will be using Judgment of the Righteous on cooldown and refreshing the seal after every judgment.
That is what I am pointing out.
The whole discussion of Skarm was about 5 mans and AOE Parts where he said about "you can't spam max rank consecrate or you will have mana issues" .
And you can't. Because you won't be using Judgment of Wisdom and Seal of Wisdom constantly. That won't be enough AoE threat to hold anything. You'll need to supplement with Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgment and seal of the righteous.
What oil is been used doesn't matter at all , it is evidence that you can possibly spam Max Rank Consecrations without being OOM at all for infinite time.
Also in Raid environment against Single Target i am not going to use or less likely to use Consecrations for single target, it is highly inefficient and it does poor threat against Single Target , as for AOE part Seal/Judge of Wisdom as shown on Video is going to work perfectly.
The oil used does matter quite a lot seeing as it gives you MP5 as a stat and that is the subject matter. Not only that but again, the 20 seconds of regen between each mob. Using consecration twice on a mob and then regenerating it all before the next pull isn't evidence of being able to spam it.
For Raids this is how mana work for 7 minutes, what you clearly ignoring in this case :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo&t=42s
If fight which last for 7 minutes doesn't make me OOM in Raid scenario , then your point has been wrong and the Video is just evidence of you being wrong.
No Multiple Judgements stacking to keep you informed and you can see that in the Video!
Except that is not what you'd be doing in a raid scenario. Where is the constant usage of Holy Shield to maintain mitigation? A warrior has no issue using Shield Block on cooldown.
Juju flurry on cooldown to increase attack speed, therefore increasing mana regeneration from judgment of wisdom.
Not only that, you're also spamming mana pots and dark runes on cooldown to keep your mana up. Mana pots that could otherwise be used for mitigation from Stoneshield Potion, which a Paladin cannot do if he wants to keep threat up.
A warrior needs neither to maintain their resource, nor do they need a specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay.
I'd also like to break down this video in another way -
Why are you attacking a low level target dummy and covering it up with your "Protection Rules" banner? It's also not like 600TPS is good, especially with Thunderfury. Anybody who knows the Repack and how to setup a test server knows that particular dummy isn't the level 60 or 63 ??Boss level target dummy.
Just take a look at the complete lack of glancing blows.
It's not me who shows them in a skewed vacuum , it's you and overall Protection Paladin haters who demand and cherry pick all the time things , despite of what was already proven , you still are going to cherry pick more and more of it (abusing my poor english too in order to prove your point).
Where did I abuse your poor english? Where did I cherrypick?
Here's how a debate works - Evidence is stripped apart and criticized where it needs to be criticized. It isn't my fault that your "evidence" has multiple holes and skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance of genuine testing and real-world examples.
Engineering is not going to do more Threat than spamming Consecration Max Ranks , not even close to it for AoE
Engineering gadgets are boosted by Defiance and Defensive Stance's base threat increase. As is demo shout, battle shout, thunderfury's proc, engineering shield's proc, thorns effects. Everything.
Protection Paladins only have consecrate and Holy shield being boosted by Righteous Fury. Aside from that, engineering gadgets do regular threat.
I'd say it's about equal. Paladins have it EASIER in terms of execution, but a warrior still has you beat due to overall higher levels of mitigation from the flat 10% damage reduction, kiting in the form of Piercing Howl when they do need it, and an unlimited resource.
With Classic who is going to provide 14% parry haste , with Classic who is going to have Mobs and Bosses doing 3-4 times lower damage than Private Servers , with Classic who is not going to have Bugs which makes Warrior overpowered and Paladin underpowered , not only your Warrior and Druids are not going to be optimal , but they are going to be shit (with exception of Druids for threat abusing MCP farming the "legit and clever mechanic abuse").
I can assure you that the gap between Paladins and Druid/Warrior will still be pretty big within raiding and progression content. Warriors and druids are absolutely going to be optimal, as they always have been.
The damage is not 3-4 times lower. You looked at Esfand tanking on the beta at the level cap on there (With twinked and enchanted gear) compared to your supposedly "better" gear while you were levelling. Extremely misinforming and disingenuous like the majority of your "evidence."
Now imagine in Classic with 14% parry and Parry haste from Bosses = Warrior Shield Blocks are going to be swallowed immediately before next one appear and then you are going to be victim of Crushing Blows and perhaps Crits (if not def cap), while Paladin Holy shield have longer duration and you can always parry/dodge/miss in between so your Holy Shield wont be removed like your Shield Block.
Parry haste can be up to 40%. Up to, depending on how long away the next bosses attack is. If anything there will be one attack that will go through, which again can be blocked, dodged, parried, or miss just as it will in your Holy Shield example. It's not as if warriors straight up lose all semblance of avoidance and mitigation the moment their shield block drops.
It's going to affect warrior threat for sure, as it will with druids. I'll concede that Paladins have two threat sources that bypass Parry - Holy Shield and Consecrate, which are a small portion of a Prot Paladin's threat.
Warriors will be fine.
Now imagine in Classic with Warriors taking lesser damage due to Mobs and Bosses hitting lesser than Pservers = Warrior Rage generation is going to be shit , which is going to make them loose very easy aggro and do extremely poor threat , while Paladin wont be affected by this.
Now imagine in Classic with Warriors not regenerating enough Rage due to lower damage output thanks to how Glancing Blows we all witness in Beta = poor aggro.
Now imagine in Classic where Warriors are not going to regenerate Rage from certain types of Debuffs and certain types of AoE unlike Pservers where they gain Rage from it = poor aggro.
You far overstate how much the rage difference will be. They will still have enough rage to spam sunder. Druids have hilariously few rage issues in raiding content due to maul costing 10 rage, or 7 with their idol.
Only because there is lack of info about Paladins , only because all the fearmongering spread around about Paladins , only because all "noobs Streamers" like Skarm pretend they are experts and telling people how Paladins are terrible , only because all "noobs website Guide Bloggers Tankadins" like Cystheen pretend they are experts and telling people Paladins can't tank without thousand of Consumes and only because Trolls like you Brainwashing everyone with lies and false info about Paladins and denigrate those like me who try to help Protection Paladin fans and community.
That's the reason why you can't see vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40 man raid progression environment!
It has been 15 years. We've seen a lot of new developments with the advent of private servers for sure. I'll give you that.
However not one person has come forward with tangible [read; not you] and comprehensible evidence that Prot Paladins are optimal anywhere other than niche AoE situations?
Sure, Paladins can tank without consumables. But they fall short of Warriors and Druids, who can also use consumables to greatly increase the gap.
Paladins take more damage due to using offspec gear.
Paladins deal less damage due to being mana starved constantly.
Paladins deal less threat both due to mana and lacking spell damage on the only viable gear for tanking.
Every video you show is in guilds where debuffs are all over the place and you're allowed to get a massive threat lead, not to mention some of the videos of your threat tests showing multiple consumables and thunderfury on low level targets which proves nothing.
There's a reason you're a bit of a meme in the tanking community.
Though I am still doubtful (as the poster merely implies he retains rather that rebuilds aggro), I will amend it for you.
I'll try to see if I can see Divine shield in action in some retail vid. Probably not, but who knows :)
Free Action Potion will be popped situationally when called for and Divine Shield's ability to purge a stun would not be used except in 5 mans.
I am not certain if Paladin could use Free Action due to the mana pot requirement but I have thrown it in there for you.
It appears that Warrior comes out on top again regardless.
I'm sorry but I don't follow. What's the meaning for the listing of abilities, consumables and cooldowns? If it's a list of abilities that can counter stun, why'd you add berserker rage and taunt?
Also, it is not ideal to have mobs go between 1st and 2nd threat as often 2nd threat is a DPS and will likely die or be in very big trouble. Using Limited Invuln. is better than a dead tank, but ideally the tank is hit and no one else unless the fight specifically calls for it.
Yeah it isn't. The 2nd in threat would have to be ready to receive. It should preferably be an off-tank. But it's a nice gimmick I used in dungeons sometimes, with ranged party. Ran to max range from heal, pop divine, when mob is over halfway close to them, I remove DS early and mob comes back to me. Not really required as a tactic or smth.
The main advantage of using DS is that you get immune to all damage, so the next hit or two won't kill you and healers can top up. With Last Stand, there's still a possibility to be killed.
Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.
Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.
Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.
Yeah we know that Pally uses off-tier gear. But how is using off-tier gear related to Tankadin's tanking capabilities? :lol:
AFAIK this is the first time I've talked about def cap in this whole thread. Feel free to read through it and check.
And I only stated that Paladins and Warriors are capable of reaching def cap, not that it is required to tank. Otherwise Druid wouldn't fit the bill, would he? :wink:
Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.
Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second.
Umm.. That's exactly what I said?
"Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person." As in, one person tanking, not multiple people tanking. That logically means keeping threat on the chosen person, the tank.
"person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage." As in, the chosen person, the tank, should be able to mitigate damage. Can't exactly mitigate damage if the damage is taken by someone else, so again that logically means you mitigate damage after you keep threat.
A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.
A paladin can easily do both. But feel free to prove it's otherwise.
I'm sorry but I don't follow. What's the meaning for the listing of abilities, consumables and cooldowns? If it's a list of abilities that can counter stun, why'd you add berserker rage and taunt?
I added them because one of the possible functions of Blessing of Protection is as a pseudo-taunt - so taunt comes into play that for a warrior their taunt and Invulnerability action are on separate cooldowns.
As for Berserker rage - your quote said a Pally could use Divine shield to counter a fear so I added in Beserker rage which is the Warrior's fear counter (also on a separate CD from invuln pot).
Yeah it isn't. The 2nd in threat would have to be ready to receive. It should preferably be an off-tank. But it's a nice gimmick I used in dungeons sometimes, with ranged party. Ran to max range from heal, pop divine, when mob is over halfway close to them, I remove DS early and mob comes back to me. Not really required as a tactic or smth.
The main advantage of using DS is that you get immune to all damage, so the next hit or two won't kill you and healers can top up. With Last Stand, there's still a possibility to be killed.
I agree it is a nice tactic for dungeons. Reminds me of Hunter Distracting Shot + FD.
A paladin can easily do both. But feel free to prove it's otherwise.
Due to the nature of "proving it otherwise" (showing a video of a Prot Pally wiping...? I mean, wouldn't you just say the raid or the pally was unskilled and that it doesn't prove anything? Just about anyone can wipe a raid), it would be better to have those in favor of proving it show a Prot Pally in a progression raid confidently clearing content.