Perhaps because nobody could have actually predicted that Greater Blessings would generate threat.. Like.. Its not like I was wrong when I wrote that. Single target threat output IS lower than any other tank when you dont use Greater Blessings, which is a discovery that happened after I made the post you are referring to.
I dont see your point here really. Unless you have been specifically talking about GBoK prior to its discovery you simply got lucky when you said Paladins do better single target TPS than other tanks. And you really dont get bonus points for guessing correctly. And shouldnt you be leveling to 60 rather than bicker on forums? :)
Anyway, a small update on what I have been up to lately:
Tanked a full MC run as Protection. Video coming shortly, but I think its safe to say that I have actually done it now Duki :)
Also succesfully tanked Onyxia.
GBoK prior to its discovery you simply got lucky when you said Paladins do better single target TPS than other tanks.
I never referred only BoK or any other Blessings.
Judgement of Wisdom , Seal of Wisdom too , they do scale with RF .
So congratulation for successfully tanking easy boss like Onyxia , where you could do it easy even without spamming Blessings and instead keeping up Judge of Wisdom on him during P2 which brings you threat all the time.
Such Tactic has been used since 2005 even when ppl had no idea about Blessings generating such big amount of threat.
But yeah , like you never got any threat info about JoW , still you claim that Paladins do lesser threat than Warriors as Tank , while Warriors have to use all the DPS Gear in order to keep that threat .
Now think in a way of Paladins using Plate gear with Spell Dmg to keep that threat as Warriors do ?
Yeah that would be pure RNG on threat. But you keep ignoring it.
Unless you have been specifically talking about GBoK prior to its discovery you simply got lucky when you said Paladins do better single target TPS than other tanks.
On top of that , just FYI i knew that Buffs DO generate threat since 2005/6. But they never did any threat in Pservers.
https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/22428-kencos-threat-guide/?tab=comments#comment-238173
. Most buff spells cast on friendly players generate a small amount of threat.
For normal abilities, each point of Mana is 0.5 threat,
These forms of buffs all have infinite range; they will cause threat to all mobs on whose threat list you are on. Furthermore, the threat caused is split equally among all the affected mobs. If you are on one mobs threat list
And as for Warriors i always knew they were overpowered in their favor in Pservers, while here in Classic they are shit.
Quoting one of the reasons why :
Note that threat caused from Power Gain is not affected by threat modifiers. Gaining 1 point of Rage will give 5 threat whether you are in Battle Stance or Defensive Stance.
They were affected by threat modifiers in pservers !
Just read Kenco Guide where i posted it not only in Elysium ,but also i had posted it on Nostalrius far earlier that you would known.
It directly explained that, mentioning Battle Shout as an example where it work as "Buff" which include ALL Buffs , not only Class Specific Buff.
Only thing i didn't expect was RF increasing the threat by the Buff.
So philosophy about Paladins being strongest threat was not because of RF Discovery , was because i knew all along how it did work since 2005/6!
Tanked a full MC run as Protection. Video coming shortly, but I think its safe to say that I have actually done it now Duki :)
I do expect Main Tanking , not some junk Offtank tanking Trash mobs.
Its painfully obvious you will just keep moving the goalpost no matter what I do or show you, so I dont really have anything to prove to you. I have done the content right now as Prot which is more than you can claim, so lets just leave it at that.
I do expect Main Tanking , not some junk Offtank tanking Trash mobs.
I mean you saw the screenshots above right. I have yet to see a single case where something was presented as evidence and you did not just ignore it as if it did not exists. Its kinda odd :)
Here's the video if anyone is interested:
It's nice to know that Pallies can tank MC/Ony!
I'm not gonna subject myself to reading all these pages of endless discussions/insanity (seriously why is Duki not happy? Pallies can tank raids. That was the whole point of this thread wasn't it?), and can't watch your vids Holyfrog since I'm at work atm, but did you have to do additional things for just plain tank and spank bosses? Or just swinging and spamming abilities to gain threat? Was mana ever an issue and if so, how did you solve it?
It's nice to know that Pallies can tank MC/Ony!
Yea, I dont think that was ever a question. And Frog represents the spec well. Frog had realistic expectations for the class. He massively geared out while healing so hes in raid gear during this raid. He has full consumes and world buffs. And he is still essentially an offtank. He isnt on the kill target in most cases because he doesnt have the same snap threat or taunt. Every fight they went up against, he played into the strengths of his spec and avoided the weaknesses. Just as a lot of us were saying and just as frog said himself. The spec has limitations and those drawbacks must be acknowledged if youre going to be successful. Frog took a suboptimal spec and made it work really well, because he had realistic expectations, a lot of knowledge and prepared for the content.
Meanwhile... Duki is still posting about tanking when hes pumping out content in scarlet monastery. At this rate he will hit 60 around the time BWL comes out.
It's nice to know that Pallies can tank MC/Ony!
I'm not gonna subject myself to reading all these pages of endless discussions/insanity (seriously why is Duki not happy? Pallies can tank raids. That was the whole point of this thread wasn't it?), and can't watch your vids @Holyfrog since I'm at work atm, but did you have to do additional things for just plain tank and spank bosses? Or just swinging and spamming abilities to gain threat? Was mana ever an issue and if so, how did you solve it?
Its fairly simple. I was tanking the bosses that has adds that need to die first, Lucifron, Gehennas, Sulfuron. Its pretty straight forward, just tank it and keep Judgement of Wisdom up. By the time adds are dead I had a solid threat lead. In the current content the mobs just die so fast that Major Mana Potion and Dark Rune is enough to sustain the threat, but I suspect this will be come a problem later on as DPS gear up and encounters last longer. Fortunately my guild has a Retpaladin that I can switch into my group for Sanctity Aura later on if I need more threat (10% increase to Holy Damage)
The boss that was the most interesting was Shazzrah, since this is a nuke fight. I was able to hold aggro just fine with Greater Kings though, and the boss even snapped right back to me after teleport. Greater Kings has really been a gamechanger for Paladins. Tanking a fight like this would have been really difficult before its discovery.
I also use a lot of Judgement of Wisdom/Seal of Wisdom in combo, as the mana gained sustains my mana for threat, and the returned mana does produce some decent amount of threat. The thing with using Seal of Wisdom though, is that I have a 1.5 speed Flurry Axe which is the best weapon forever to restore mana with using this Seal, but the threat from this is entirely flat, and will never scale with gear meaning I do the same threat from mana restoration right now as I will do two years from now in Naxx, which is why I have a hard time with Duki saying threat is so great from Seal of Wisdom. The threat will simply just keep dropping off the further we progress into the game, where Warriors/Druids will have more and more available gear to increase both their threat and their available resources (Rage) through doing more damage.
You put words on my mouth, i never said seal of wisdom as best single target threat, but you obviosly have no clue how to play it aswell of being a noob .
First of all, unless AOE fight you DONT use seal of wisdom, only judgement of wisdom and seal of righteousness spamming jor on cd, holy shield on cd and casual max rank consecrations depend on situation.
But problem with this guy is that he false talk stuffs which are far of being proper prot paladin threat maker.
If you want to do threats, use spell dmg enchant on weapon, spell dmg consumes except flask and runes/pots. Thats more than enough to do strong threats and lesser mana , so you dont end up being a junk on threats.
Next , when AOE fight you do ONLY seal/judge of wisdom , retri aura , rf , sanc and max rank conse.. nothing else.
There is difference between single target and aoe, those differences do work separated and spell dmg/gear is factor how you do increase threats .
Relying on sow when you fight/tank against single target is wrong.
You put words on my mouth, i never said seal of wisdom as best single target threat, but you obviosly have no clue how to play it aswell of being a noob .
A noob? A person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.
Keep tanking scarlet monastery Duki, we'll see you at 60 in phase 3 tough guy. You are inexperienced in Classic.
And to be clear... Duki is only at around level 40-44, which is the halfway mark... And we are entering phase 2 in just a little bit. Its entirely possible that at his current leveling speed he will be hitting 60 in phase 3, halfway through Classic. Oh my Duki... Oh my.
I am a very happy paladin.
Congratulations :)
I'm planning to work through this thread as my guild is considering building up some token memespecs for fun. Some thoughts if anyone wants to comment, just from looking at talent trees:
1. It seems that holy shield + redoubt talent = 30 + 30 = 60% block chance. That means plausibly you could fill in the other 30% with normal avoidance and block. In other words, after getting a crit, it would trigger the redoubt talent making it impossible to get crit twice. Combine with reckoning talent and you could make a build which purposely avoids any +defense, soaking up the occasional crit by design, stacking only armour, spell power and avoidance/block
2. Could skip consecration in order to get the full 5% parry from ret tree, helping reach that sweet ~30%. Benediction from early ret combined with improved seal seal of righteousness from holy is going to maximize single target threat, which is what most raid tanking is all about
3. The disadvantage of taking both redoubt and reckoning means skipping improved devotion aura. But I find that healers always take this regardless, so easy to account for
I'll try to spend some more time reading but feel free to let me know if my intuition is correct or not
Would not BoL with a bunch of melee attacking a mob produce higher threat than BoW?
Do you mean Judgement of Wisdom vs Judgement of Light? Both Judgements have their threat attributed to the person getting the hp/mana restoration, meaning if a Paladin judge light, the threat from each heal is added to the threat of each seperate melee striking the target.
And yes, Avoidance builds absolutely have some merit too them. Im personally just concerned with your stamina in such a build as Avoidance pieces sometimes can get very low amounts of Stamina, but there are Paladins playing it around with such builds with some success.
Some Bosses do require Def Gear, some Bosses do require Resistance Gear , some Bosses do require Armor and DPS Gear.
It all depend, but if you want to experiment with Builds it's all up to you.
Some Bosses do require Def Gear, some Bosses do require Resistance Gear , some Bosses do require Armor and DPS Gear.
It all depend, but if you want to experiment with Builds it's all up to you.
But raiding requires reaching a high level so you should just focus on that Duki until you talk about raid content.
Some Bosses do require Def Gear, some Bosses do require Resistance Gear , some Bosses do require Armor and DPS Gear.
It all depend, but if you want to experiment with Builds it's all up to you.
But raiding requires reaching a high level so you should just focus on that Duki until you talk about raid content.
I don't have to be lvl 60 in a Game where i cleared all raids 14 years ago and perfectly know how things are in order to say how they work.
It seems you claim this for yourself.
Neither any of your claims about my plans or about how i will play this game are true.
If you read history of my text , you will notice far long before Game was released or Decided about any Phase , i said i will begin Raiding Guild
at December , until then you can only speculate .
killerduki , just calm down and level. You havent played Classic before. The rest of us are out here raiding, completing content and talking about the state and functionality of the game. Youre still learning. Youre just figuring out Scarlet Monastery and building your toon. Youre about half way through the game. Just focus on leveling up and then you can have an informed opinion about paladins in the raid scene, until then, youre just arguing for the sake of arguing. Youre still new to the game so just slow down and enjoy it... Once you get to max level and complete some actual content you can share your opinion on the state of the game.
I recommend watching some of Holyfrogs video on youtube, a great representative for pallies. Hes really leading the charge for Classic and pushing out some exceptional content to help new guys like yourself get started.
Here's the video if anyone is interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz2VvAJpDmo
Just in case to explain to people how terrible this player is playing Protection Paladin in Raids :
Used 0.25 speed to see things easier , because his fast speed Video makes you avoid watching how he play the game.
1- 01:40-01:44 = you can see how he is waiting for the mob and straight judging JoW - SoR against a mob who is dying within few seconds, instead of just JoR - SoR and keep him until it die.
First mistake = he rely on Consecration which is poor Aggro against single target and Heavy Mana inneficient leaving him out of mana.
Second mistake = Consecration is not snap aggro like Judge of Righteous is.
Third mistake = Mob can easily kill whole group until this guy get the Aggro because he didn't use his tool for snap aggro.
Fourth mistake = no Holy Shield pre cast , so even if mob hit him at beginning , chances for him to loose him are high , because return dmg ability is not ready.
2- 02:08-02:20 = you can see him run with SoW/JoW and loosing the mob instantly because he was unable or let say noob to hold him and tank him (clueless how to take it and not loosing it from group , where Warrior didn't even had to use Taunt lol) .
SoW is terrible threat make against Single Target.
First mistake = when lava surger came, he does consecration instead of JoR to pick him up instantly , so mob ending up banished without aggro on him and he wasted his mana completely for nothing.
Second mistake = no Holy Shield used , even if mob for some reason did hit him , he could had kept him if HS did proc upon block.
Lucifron fight :
On a boss where he is not Tanking the 1st kill , he don't pre cast Holy Shield (he did bit late) , so he did not had time to consecration at very beginning.
While he used JoR there (useless since he is not first target to die) , he didn't began with JoW on Boss to regen and refill the wasted mana from the pull.
On top of that, no JoW on Boss made him hungry for mana , merely by not having anyone decursing him is making him spending so much mana worthless and instead on JoR/Holy Shield relying, he rely on Consecration which is poor aggro for highly mana inefficiency on long term. Ending up as poor threat trying to buff in order to be somehow efficient. (completely joke) .
Wasting shit tons of Consumes for nothing , hence his Tanking rotation is terrible (spamming consecration against single target all the time) .
No Judge of Wisdom for extra threat by group and mana regen and Judge of Crus is lesser threat compare to how much will provide JoW.
Thanks to being extremely big noob, he ended up oom when boss came to 80% hp , on top of him being poor on aggro even tho he wasted all those consumes and Pots/Runes for nothing.
He also ended up being even more Noob when boss went down to 30% , by using Seal of Wisdom to regenerate more mana so he can spam more Blessing of Kings..... I mean, what i see is terrible player beyond mine disappointments of expectations by noob Paladins ..... Therefore called an Protection Paladin expert IMO or even worse, Theorycrafter (damn) .
Magmadar fight : He isnt main tanking , wortless to discuss about it.
Gehennas fight : similar story as Lucifron fight, only difference is that he finally used judge of wisdom after he wasted all of his mana consumes :D (rofl).
Just more of it, is where he didn't used SoR for long time before he reused it, so he is not making efficient threat during that time , leaving himself on poor threat making.
11:50 : Someone asspull the mobs , he is getting paranoya and using Consecration at empty land, instead of picking the mob using snap aggro ability called Judgement of Righteousness , not only that he didn't took the aggro , but also he wasted all his mana for nothing ,ending up using Seal of Wisdom which is imo terrible on aggro because he went oom so quickly , he ended up completely joke there.
Shahraz fight: No Holy Shield pre pull cast for more threat , He is using Fire Resistance Aura instead of Retribution Aura for more threat .
Shahraz teleport , because he is wasting his Judges worthless, his JoR is on CD , so he can't snap aggro him during that period , leaving his Group dying . while he is desparate of buffing Kings which is poorer aggro than JoR.
Because he was so noob spamming so much Consecration at beginning , he ended up with poor mana and used Seal of Wisdom instead after Boss teleporting went back to him lmao , so he ended up being more noob to rely spamming Kings which is extremely limited threat making and poor threat compare to Seal of Righteousness against single target.
Garr fight : No Holy Shield pre pull , after he wasted all of his mana , he then so much later decide to use Seal and Judge of wisdom , while whole time he had his mob without Judgement of Wisdom , despite the fact that hes been loosing Buffs like Righteous Fury for the whole time from Garr dispells , he was noob enough to not knowing about it and wasting his mana on worthless Consecration without Righteous Fury on him :D .
How much does it takes to have at least 0.1% IQ inside brain to think about , that NONE of your spells are worth wasting all that mana you did , if you are not using Righteous Fury.
Majordommo fight : No Righteous Fury at the beginning of the fight, he is using Retribution Aura instead of Fire Resistance Aura , No judgement of Wisdom , he wasted all his mana , boom Warrior had to take aggro from him because Warlock was about to over aggro him at end , same as he was poor on HP due to no Fire Resistance Aura using (perhaps Healer went oom trying to heal thru that) .
Ragnaros fight : Heal Tank because you are noob :)
Now i see why people call Protection Paladins as suboptimal , noobs , less viable , Oomzor , low threat.
We have Brainwashers like Holyfrog who clearly have no fucking clue what they are doing. Therefore they are Preaching and are so called Experts.
just calm down and level. You havent played Classic before.
On top of this Troll lying all the time and claiming he know about me more than me myself ROFL .
How much IQ does it take to trust some random website which is bugged and providing false info compare to Real evidence given on a screenshots with timeline and date and Video evidence given with proof that game was bought in 2005.
. In the current content the mobs just die so fast that Major Mana Potion and Dark Rune is enough to sustain the threat, but I suspect this will be come a problem later on as DPS gear up and encounters last longer.
That's because you were noob having no clue how to build up threat and sustain high threat.
JoW do scale in Classic with Righteous Fury and provide much higher threat (pservers gave 0 threat, classic does give you 0.5 threat per 1 mana and this threat it is increased from Righteous Fury) and thanks to mana regeneration, you do more threat with this Judge rather than using JoTC.
JoTC in Classic is poorer than Pservers due to lower SP coefficient on SoR .
I enjoyed my coffee , good night.
That's because you were noob...
For full context duki is around level 40-45 right now and has not participated in a Classic raid. Hes has no raid experience yet is criticizing a prot pally who raid tanks. Duki, youre a noob and youre delusional. :lol: