Howdy, tankadins.
I've been playing as a prot paladin on several private servers over the past few years, and in preparation for Classic's release, I put together and published a WoWHead guide on protection paladin tanking, although I'd consider it far from being complete and is a work in progress. Link is below.
https://classic.wowhead.com/guides/lights-bulwark-protection-paladin-tanking
I have also been doing lots of theorycrafting and research on unique tanking armor and trinkets, as well as on paladin tanking abilities. The aim of my theorycrafting is to create mathematical formulas and analyses on tanking mechanics such as damage mitigation and threat generation in order to reach objective and factual conclusions about the most optimal and viable solutions for paladin tanks. I'm looking for like-minded people to work together with me on this.
Below is a link to my Google Drive folder containing theorycrafting spreadsheets for various items and abilities (view only).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1W081A5J7x2gw18mXHaliEqkVxyKFSjgO?usp=sharing
Below are some sample screenshots of a few theorycrafting spreadsheets in my folder I've done so far.
Force Reactive Disk DPS - fun fact, the DPS scales exponentially with the number of mobs (N^2)
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Holy Shield damage mitigation
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Holy Shield base threat generation
Seal of Righteousness basic analysis. I would say this one requires the most work as I still need to figure out the formula for how Main Hand Weapon speed affects the on-hit damage of SoR. At the very least i figured out the values for the minimum and maximums under various conditions.
Thank you Askalon, for shamelessly promoting your guide without even taking notice of the ongoing discussion.
I was hoping for another well informed opinion or perspective, some input at the very least. Disappointing.
Thank you Askalon, for shamelessly promoting your guide without even taking notice of the ongoing discussion.
I was hoping for another well informed opinion or perspective, some input at the very least. Disappointing.
Meh, take a look at his guide...
"The goal of this guide is to provide aspiring paladin tanks a comprehensive introduction towards become a successful tank for the majority of end-game content, excluding 40-man raids. What I define by success is being able to consistently tank 5-man dungeons and some 20-man raid encounters at approximately the same level as warrior tanks. Don't expect to be tanking Patchwerk or Kel'Thuzad anytime soon, though." (Askalon's guide)
He goes on to list the weaknesses of paladin tanks as:
No taunt
Limited access to raid-tier tanking gear
Almost no abilities available for single-target crowd control
No emergency damage mitigation abilities (e.g. Last Stand, Shield Wall)
Limited mana resource pool for spells and abilities
Under his reccomendations he states (and youre going to LOVE this Duki...)
"Highly recommended to not tank raids as a paladin during guild progression; only after raid is on farm."
"You will very likely need tanking gear of the same raid tier or higher to make up for a lack of surviability abilities (Shield Wall, Last Stand) compared to warrior tanks."
This one is for you Psojed
"Using consumables is a must. I recommend using a Flask of Supreme Power or Titans, Major Mana Potions, Mageblood Potions, and Mana Oil to keep up threat generation due to extended fight times."
Seems like he has a pretty accurate understanding of what to expect when playing a prot paladin. Very reasonable expectations. Also the conversation with Duki is a nightmare... The guy just keeps linking the same videos and is stuck in a mental loop. The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
Dont get me wrong... I do enjoy a bit of drama, but for some of the other people who just want some information, this guide could be a good place to start. The video I linked at the start of the thread made by Skarm is pretty decent, and this guide also seems pretty accurate in a text based option. Two great options to help players get some pally tanking info.
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread.
Exactly, which is why I would have liked for him to not just link his guide but actually respond to the thread. Information is what I am looking for, since I have never played a Pally and probably never will.
It just seemed a shame to me; "oh there's a pally tanking thread, time to copy and paste my marketing post".
I just want to encourage a bit more contribution than that, is all :)
But you are right of course, the information given in said post is useful one way or the other.
I think Askalon has been one of the only ones to actually move the topic forward for a while. Thanks for your reasonable and well compiled information, this thread had turned into a real shit fight, and not actually providing reasonable and level headed information.
Well said Stfuppercut, credit where credit is due for the reply, I agree with you completely. It's nice to see realistic and informative replies.
Askalon
Thanks for the contribution. I thoroughly enjoyed the guide, and I do think this fits well into this thread, as its does answer what the original poster wanted to know about Paladin tanks. Which was the point of the thread in the first place.
I also found the graphs interesting, particularly the one showing Holy Shield threat. As per your own data, you need to actually use up all 4 charges of Holy Shield in order for the TPS from Holy Shield to surpass that of Consecration. This demonstrates just how little threat Paladins actually do compared with other tanks. I also believe the maximum block chance attainable by a Paladin tank in Vanilla is no more than 28%. This means expending all 4 charges against a single target is not very likely.
I do disagree with the build you posted though. In my experience, you are much more limited by your threat than you are by your survivability as a Paladin tank. I would not advice to pick Anticipation as a talent, and instead get Reckoning and One-Handed Weapon Specialization. I also strongly advice 2/2 Improved Judgement for extra TPS.
Because Defcap isnt really needed to tank in Vanilla, not having Anticipation wont hurt that badly. It's also just 10 +defense from 5 full points. That is less than what you can find on a single piece of gear.
I have the same feeling about improved Devotion Aura. Most of the time you will be using Ret Aura, and a Holy Paladin will be providing you with Devotion. In any case, you have the same problem as with Anticipation, which is that 5 full points need to be invested for a total bonus armor of 184.
It's just not worth the points in my opinion.
I would recomend this build instead:
Here you get Reckoning. Every time you get hit you will be doing an additional swing on your next attack. This means extra SoR, and it means an additional chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom which you sorely need. The effect of the talent also increase dramatically with the number of mobs you are tanking. For 5 mans it often means you pull a group, get crit a few times, and then reckbomb the Skulltarget for 2-3 additional attacks all fueled by SoR for infinite threat on said mob until the pack is dead, leaving you to focus on other mobs.
For a demonstration of what I mean, check out my video from 5 man Stratholme, and notice just how many times I get crit (and thus get extra attacks) throughout the run.
Something to note is that this is private server footage, and I do utilize /sit for extra crits now and then. This wont work in Classic, but the talent will still be very strong just from getting passively crit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALOPKT55wVQ
Likewise, the One-Handed Weapon Specialization talent increase the damage dealt by Seal of Righteousness by 10% in addition to increasing your white damage. And because I feel threat is still our strongest issue, this talent will help with that.
I also think dropping some points in Parry to get Guardian's Favor can be perfectly viable. Let's you use your BoP as a pseudo taunt more often, which is a great help in 5man. It also extends the duration of your freedom which can work well on some mobs (Freedom makes you immune to the damage abilities that apply a slowdebuff such as Mindflay from the Inquisitors in Stratholme Living side)
Other than this though, It's obvious you put in a lot of time and effort into this guide, and I have to tell you how good it is to finally see a more objective guide to Paladin tanking be put out there. Great effort.
As for this:
I would say this one requires the most work as I still need to figure out the formula for how Main Hand Weapon speed affects the on-hit damage of SoR.
Perhaps I can help. Dmzor from the Classic Beta has put in a ton of time into researching Paladin mechanics, and came up with a formula for SoR that seem to hold true when checked against old videos.
At 60, the base damage for SoR is 18.675, and the actual formula for SoR damage is:
(((18.675 * WeaponSpeed ) * WeaponTypeCoeffcient) * Talent multipliers) + (Spellpower * 0.1)
WeaponTypeCoeffient is 0.85 for onehander, and 1.2 for twohanders.
Additionally you can multiply the damage of SoR with talents like Improved Seal of Righteousness (multiplier of 1.15) and One-Handed Weapon Specialization for (multiplier of 1.1). Both of these talents are applied BEFORE spellpower.
A 2.4 speed Ironfoe f.ex with 50 spellpower on gear and the talent Improved Seal of Righteousness would be doing
(((18.675 * 2.4 ) * 0.85) * 1.15) + (50 * 0.1) for a total of 48.8 damage.
On private servers this formula is different, and the spellpower coefficient from SoR gets multiplied by weapon speed which is not the case in Classic where the spellpower coefficient is just flat no matter the speed. This is another nerf to our threat in Classic compared with private servers.
I do believe the spellpower coefficient when wearing a twohander is slightly higher than onehander though. Something like 12.5% instead of 10% of Spellpower. Dont quote me on that.
If you want you should join the Discord server. A lot of good information has been gathered there from the Beta about Paladin mechanics, and I think someone like you would fit right in. There's not a whole lot of Prot info there right now, but perhaps you could help with that, or at least find like-minded individuals wanting to contribute to your guide. There's a lot of knowledgeable experienced Protection Paladins in the discord, some of whom have tanked raids.
Nice addition by Askalon and follow-up from Holyfrog.
Watching Holyfrog's video almost makes me want to tank as a Paladin. Almost :lol:
Perhaps this marks the end of the logical fallacy circle jerk :biggrin:
Holyfrog Why does your meter misread you as a Warrior? :O
It's just a bug with the addon because I disconnected. It gets fixed once the mage leave and the addon cycles through the party to update itself.
@Everyone
Thanks everybody for the positive feedback! I intentionally decided to abruptly join the conversation because after reading the entire thread. I felt like there were moments in which there was meaningful discussion being made, but between those moments, it was getting quickly derailed and turning into drama and harassment, which was getting in the way of making progress (no offense to anybody in particular, we all have our own passions and biases). Like I've said, my guide and research is extremely far from being complete, so I'll definitely be continuously updating them over time.
With regards to the original question of OP:
Is Paladin tanking still a dead end?
I do not think paladin tanking is a dead end. I think it has various use cases that it excels at, like dungeon tanking and AoE farming, asides from being fun, which is why I do it.
Holyfrog and Stfuppercut, Thank you for the excellent followups and the invite to the discord server! Definitely looking forward to joining a zealous community on this crusade (geddit cuz paladins)!
Looking forward to keeping up the discussion!
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
That is until Duki appears again with his libel, calling Askalon's a "prick" and a "noob" for claiming paladins can't tank Kel'Thuzad and "proving" they can with that awful Onyxia video...
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
That is until Duki appears again with his libel, calling Askalon's a "prick" and a "noob" for claiming paladins can't tank Kel'Thuzad and "proving" it with that awful Onyxia video...
What ever do you mean, that video is LITERAL proof of nothing :biggrin:
No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!
So the conclusion is simply to be over geared for content in order to make up for the lack of class talents? That video literally shows a Thunderfury wielding Paladin. That is not an everyday Prot Paladin scenario.
Nice to see you still living in my Shadow 14 years later Duki, stop while you're ahead. I'm getting married in 2 months cba farming 18 consumables 8 hours a week to Tank farm content I don't even play anymore and don't plan on playing Classic. A subscription for a 15 year old game? Seriously? By the way I have a revised guide on my computer that's 4 times as long and has everything anyone would ever want to know, including the bubble debuff add-on that hasn't been anywhere for anyone to find since wow-one shut down. The only thing I'm happy to see is that someone saved my guide because I didn't know it was still out there I had to rewrite it from scratch so I might revise it some now, but that being said it is and will be a definitive Tankadin Guide. It has a Profession Guide, Leveling Guide, and Raid Guide for all dungeons and is REALISTIC with a few WARNING sections if a guild wants to try something retarded like you soaking Patch or any other dumb shit which requires a nearly BiS group on farm content. Which by the way a majority of the BiS gear for Soaking Patch is Tier 3 Healing Gear because it has more armor and stamina. Hateful Strikes don't Crit so you have to just be able to eat it so you gear as a Feral Druid would for that.
As an added bonus heres video I put up from back then.
This was an attempt on a Progression Noth fight where we were short a Tank and they put me on a corner. I stopped recording because I was lagging a lot but as you can see I was able to hold 4 adds which is ridiculous. We killed it the next attempt I had to down rank 3 Exorcism to pull them and rotate with Judgement.
I do believe Prot Paladins can do Progression Content as well. Although I will say I always had BIS prior to that content *cough* and max consumes *cough* In Naxx I was doing Anub Adds and AOE bugs, Noth Corners, The Gauntlet, All Trash, Maexenna Adds for Stun Phases, Gothik Adds, a Faerlina Add and you could maybe Kite Gluth adds with a Zanza but I never bothered because a Mage doesn't need a fucking Zanza to do that. Besides I could heal pretty damn well with Tier 3 even as Prot Spec, which my guide also covers, ya'know having a heal set because during PROGRESSION a realistic person would know you need one (as well as Nightfall) for all the fights you won't be participating in.
Nice to see you still doing you Duki, you still don't understand what I was trying to do though. I always chose wearing good Tank Gear and using a lot of consumes over the convenience of being a shit Tank that took twice as much damage wearing bad gear with spell damage or MP5 and speccing Int over Strength in Holy and losing a significant amount of Block Value. There's something to be said about taking short cuts and being lazy, yeah you might get the job done but no healer is ever going to be impressed.
Peace - Cysthen
You want to know why you can't find that add-on anymore? Because I fucking made it.
Jesus This thread is on fire, not gonna read through it all though lol.
I found that argument earlier hilarious as well, talking about using Judge of Crusader and Judge of Wisdom.
I think these people forget there's a 16 debuff limit and you have to squeeze 40 people on it. Which means you won't be using those spells except for on a handful of adds that perhaps are solo Tanked off to the side.
That and it's a waste of Mana to even use those spells half the time because you need to pull with Judge of Righteous for burst threat. Seal of Righteous > Judge > Seal of Righteous (then you're trying tell me in 10 seconds you're going to do this following shit) > Seal of Crusader > Judge > Seal of Righteous. That is super inefficient and 90% of the time is overkill on threat if you're using Weapon Oil and Elixir.
Maybe if you're off tanking you can start with Crusader but you don't have Taunt so you're kind of just a high threat safety net that might never even get the boss if the Warrior doesn't die, that and you're significantly lowering the DPS of the Raid wasting that debuff slot, on top of being very Mana inefficient when you can just use your Seal 28 seconds before you Judgement again.
If anyone is going to use Judge of Crusader it should be a healer so you're not wasting Mana and even then you're wasting a debuff slot as I already stated.
There are some things that yeah sure maybe you can do them but you're usually better off just using consumables and just dropping a few higher rank Consecrations over using Judge of Crusader because it better suits your Raid. If you're even there to begin with because you're just there to add flavor to the Raid.
Paladin Tanks are those packets you put in Water to flavor them, Warriors are the Water. A lot of people don't like Paladin Tanks because they're watching their sugar intake and want to be healthy. They're nice to have around and make a few encounters fun, maybe even a little faster but it's not healthy farming 18 consumables and Raiding 3 nights a week on top of 20 man's on Weekends. I don't drink much Sugar anymore.
That and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.
https://www.twitch.tv/cysthen/v/57456021?sr=a&t=1s
If you want to know more about Melee Hunters you can go here:
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28163
Flask of Supreme Power for threat testing? You will never use a Flask of Supreme Power for Tanking what the fuck is this you already have less Health than Warriors as it is. It's Flask of Titans only. Ever. Maybe if you're in full BiS in a ZG you can use a Supreme Power but I don't see why you would ever ever do that.
Don't mind Duki you guys he's been like this forever and was actually kind of a meme on that first Server. That's why he's still talking about me all I had to do was Google my name and here he is again, it's a Nightmare. He always used Spell Damage Weapons and always had bad English. He's dedicated sure but he's a meme, he's not a role model, and he's not using a fucking 15 Agility Enchant or a Tank Weapon and has 2% less Avoidance. (and 2000 less Health if he's using Supreme Power, and 10% less Strength from talents which translates to less Block Value).
Have fun healing him guys.
Oh and by the way Duki it's been 9 Years not 14.
P.S. Do any of you guys know a good Website that I can post my new Guide on that will be easy to find and will sticky it? Is this the place to do that?
I can host my own Website and not have to deal with comments or Duki which is my preference as I don't care to deal with him. The only issue is that's 20$ a year and granted yes I could pay that it doesn't seem like the best thing to do.
Taking any suggestions. Thanks in advance for the love everybody. I'd like to thank Furious I'm glad to see my old guide is still around on the internet in some capacity. Keep it real and don't let a Paladin gimping himself using a Spell Damage Weapon and Supreme Power in any of your Raids.
Hey Cysthen. Great post. One thing I want to point out though.
That and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.
This is not really true. While you are right that Hunter's have a slightly higher uptime on Nightfall (45% instead of 40% like a Retpala has).. Well.. Good luck finding a Hunter that actually want to sit and melee every raid and get passed up on every piece of ranged loot to the other Hunters because of it.
Not going to happen.
The highest Nightfall uptime would be a Fury Warrior btw, with roughly 50%. But again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a Retpala.
Personally I dont have a problem with a Retpala in raids. If the Paladin player understands how to play into the support role and has a Nightfall and Annihilator, maintain buffs, cleanse, bops, has improved lay on hands, and is willing to farm Manual Crowd Pummelers for DPS then they can be a good asset to a raiding guild. Especially because their preferred gear for DPS will be Full T2 up until they can get the 2.5 Avenger set, which means you have one less player in the raid to share gear with. Which is a huge advantage to a guild.
The issue is more that most Paladins dont want to put in the effort required, but they are by no means a wasted slots imo.
Theres only 2 Hunters. Trust me they won't be upset losing any ranged loot because they won't be losing any ranged loot. If anything it helps them get more loot.
For example me getting Quickstrike Ring on my Hunter:
https://www.twitch.tv/cysthen/v/25981022?sr=a&t=0s
It is true and Melee Hunters do more DPS than Ranged Hunters in a group with 12+ Casters with Bloodvine+ Gear. Which during BWL+ Progression is every Raid.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Ret Paladin supporting post because you said I was wrong but then said Hunters have more uptime.
That was all I needed to read.
That and your uptime percentages are wrong and guess's at best. Hunters have a Spammable Global Ability and Paladins don't so it's significantly more uptime.
I saw you mention Fury Warrior uptime. It is true that it's the fastest but that requires a Warrior with Flurry to spam Hamstring. With that said a regular Fury Warrior Dual Wielding will out dps regular Ranged Hunters and for that reason alone a Hunter is the best class for the job.
But again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a **Melee Hunter**
^Fixed
If you can find me a Ret Paladin that out dps's Fury Warriors in Single Target DPS I might change my mind but you won't because BiS Fury Warriors are commonly the Highest DPS in the game.
Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
I don't mind having a dedicated Ret Paladin in a Raid it's just I don't believe they deserve to be in the whole Nightfall argument. It might be a good BiS Preraid Weapon for them but they're better off equipping an upgrade and using Seal of Command. Especially if there are going to be Hunters using it anyway.
I admire your persistence Holyfrog to play a class I absolutely love but there are facts that one must take a sit back and respect. I'm not trying to sit here and say you can't clear every Raid with a Ret Paladin in the group. I'm just saying it's obviously not optimal.
Some of those crazy wild fantasy's are possible if an entirely decked out BiS group wants to do it just to do it, but they're still crazy wild fantasy's.
I can host my own Website and not have to deal with comments or Duki which is my preference as I don't care to deal with him. The only issue is that's 20$ a year and granted yes I could pay that it doesn't seem like the best thing to do.