Only because his threat got highly boosted by Block Value from Sapphiron Trinket , doesn't mean that "Weapon would have made him do such big amount of threat if there was no Sapphiron Trinket using by him" .

And you specifically requested he did not dualwield. You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.
Nobody changed conditions of the test , it was asked to do on lvl 1 and on Raid lvl target Dummy , because Raid lvl target Dummy are going to be huge NERF for Warrior tanks compare to lvl 1 Dummy!

See the above quote.

Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.

This person is doing 70% more DPS than the Warrior in Duki's raid. My point was that Duki's raid has very low DPS, and this video of yours proves it. Sadly you chose to focus on the exact DPS figure I gave you, and then probably went to youtube to look at a bunch of videos until you found one that gave a different number from mine while missing the point I was making by a mile.

Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cherry picking cheap shots.
https://legacyplayers.com/

I also never said they were my own logs.

So long from your 15 years raid logs , when you provide Logs from past 3 Years in a Private Servers, where today majority of Protection Paladins are in denial of Raiding thanks to those who spill lies and missinformation like you....
It was not irrelevant to the point I was making in the post you originally replied to. Dualwield WAS however irrelevant in the context of the point you were trying to make as a response.

But you still resurrecting it when it comes toward a fact in order to justify your own propaganda , like the last post you did where you pointed out my Supreme Power Flask.
You strike me as the kind of person that just want to provoke and get a reaction out of people because you keep nitpicking on details of my post while going out of your way to intentionally misunderstand anything I say. You have no actual interest in debating anything, and you keep using emoticons such as :lol: to try and ridicule me as a person rather than construct arguments against the points I am trying to make. This is the kind of behaviour people usually grow out of by the time they leave preschool.

I will consider you a troll from this point on and will simply ignore your posts.

Speaking this for yourself seems .
And you specifically requested he did not dualwield. You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.

I never imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs , you are putting your own words in my mouth .
Re read the Discord Chat and see that on your own!

It has been said on "Personal Buffs/Debuffs" with Consumes.

But that doesn't image the whole situation , especially NOT when Raid target is in question and not lvl 1.

Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.

Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.

Pre-raid gear.... as you wear https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/thunderfury-blessed-blade-of-the-windseeker and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard ... no. This lie is getting old. Neither you nor your raid is wearing pre-raid gear in the Magmadar Video.

Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.

Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.

Pre-raid gear.... as you wear https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/thunderfury-blessed-blade-of-the-windseeker and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard ... no.

I am talking about the Group DPS, not about me.

Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.

Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.

Pre-raid gear.... as you wear https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/thunderfury-blessed-blade-of-the-windseeker and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard ... no.

I am talking about the Group DPS, not about me.

Though they are obscured much in the video, I can still see https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller easily. I could scour the video and come up with more, but I already know pre-raid BiS is a lie.

Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.

This person is doing 70% more DPS than the Warrior in Duki's raid. My point was that Duki's raid has very low DPS, and this video of yours proves it. Sadly you chose to focus on the exact DPS figure I gave you, and then probably went to youtube to look at a bunch of videos until you found one that gave a different number from mine while missing the point I was making by a mile.

Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.

If only Warriors had some kind of ability that breaks fears. Maybe we can call them Death Wish and Berserker Rage. It would also be great if Magmadar's fear was considered a magic effect and could be dispelled instantly by healers.

Oh wait!

It's also not relevant what caused your raid to have low DPS. The fact is the raid did have low DPS, and this is the reason for why you were able to tank the boss without using Mana Pots and Runes. This is also the point that keeps getting ignored because engaging in it would mean admitting there are flaws with the Paladin class as tanks.

killerduki they are starting to make some headway in the conversation... QUICKLY distract everyone with a wall of spam and more videos to make the thread more convoluted and challenging to navigate! Do full quotes without pinpointing which parts of their posts you are responding to! Create a wave of text!!!! No a tsunami of text by spam quoting! Perhaps you could distract everyone by calling us noobs and pricks! Better yet, disregard the progress in the conversation and restate your previous points without acknowledging any criticisms that were previously made! The walls are closing in, you dont have much time left! Racism... Racists. YOURE ALL RACISTS!

Skipping all your huge creative walls of text after this statement, Killerduki. I just want to address it first:
Why the hell am i going to spam Consecration which bad threat against Single Target?! ...

1) Consecration will use the same amount of mana no matter how many targets affected
2) Earlier you posted a video where you fight one single mob, "proving", that you can cast consecration on every cooldown without running oom.

Your question is ridiculous as it was not an issue in your own video, nor does it change the fact that using consecration on every cooldown will run you oom.

According to your claims that you can spam consecration on every cooldown without running oom. Why wouldn't you want to use it on a single target as well? It causes holy damage which we both know is where most of your threat is generated from, due to righteous fury. And even though, as you point out, it doesn't cause much single target threat, why wouldn't you still generate that threat, small as it is, if it doesn't run you oom?

Then you'd probably say that for the single target you would use SoR instead of SoW. Still, you have based your arguments on paladins not having mana issues on their access to SoW.
May I point out; paladin tanks mana issue does not only stem from the use of consecration. On a single target raid boss, you will still run out of mana eventually spamming SoR/JoR. That is unless, you prepare for the fight with runes, mana pots, and other consumables. In this case making you dependent on consumables or enablers (like druids wasting innervate on you).

@killerduki they are starting to make some headway in the conversation... QUICKLY distract everyone with a wall of spam and more videos to make the thread more convoluted and challenging to navigate! Do full quotes without pinpointing which parts of their posts you are responding to! Create a wave of text!!!! No a tsunami of text by spam quoting! Perhaps you could distract everyone by calling us noobs and pricks! Better yet, disregard the progress in the conversation and restate your previous points without acknowledging any criticisms that were previously made! The walls are closing in, you dont have much time left! Racism... Racists. YOURE ALL RACISTS!

Ahahahaha, omg, I laughed so hard I splurted out my drink xD

I never imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs , you are putting your own words in my mouth .
Re read the Discord Chat and see that on your own!

It has been said on "Personal Buffs/Debuffs" with Consumes.

But that doesn't image the whole situation , especially NOT when Raid target is in question and not lvl 1.

Normally I wouldnt link to a discord like this, but since you personally requested I looked through the Discord, I went ahead and did just that.

I never imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs , you are putting your own words in my mouth .
Re read the Discord Chat and see that on your own!

It has been said on "Personal Buffs/Debuffs" with Consumes.

But that doesn't image the whole situation , especially NOT when Raid target is in question and not lvl 1.

Normally I wouldnt link to a discord like this, but since you personally requested I looked through the Discord, I went ahead and did just that.

MPV hero of the thread.

Holyfrog is the MvP! After the storm settles, you should stick around frog.

Only because his threat got highly boosted by Block Value from Sapphiron Trinket , doesn't mean that "Weapon would have made him do such big amount of threat if there was no Sapphiron Trinket using by him" .

And you specifically requested he did not dualwield. You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.
Nobody changed conditions of the test , it was asked to do on lvl 1 and on Raid lvl target Dummy , because Raid lvl target Dummy are going to be huge NERF for Warrior tanks compare to lvl 1 Dummy!

See the above quote.

And you specifically requested he did not dualwield.

Requesting to not use some specific "Meme Spec" which is going to destroy main tank like Dual Wield thanks to Parry Haste and because i requested him to sit on the same level as me , doesn't mean i was restricting him from anything.

It was request where he would do same as i did , otherwise i could have used Shields that scale with SP and torn him apart in regard to threats as Offtank , but instead the TESTS was requested to be in proper DEFENSIVE way!

I could anytime use some sort of 2Hand Weapon as OFFTANK to compete his "Duel Wield" , but i didn't , because the TESTS had different purpose, pure Defensive Geared Tank with only Threat MainHand Weapon.

Here is SKARM himself testing 2Hand Weapon as threat:

https://youtu.be/8zctHC3ePLk?t=49

See how he torn apart the Warrior Tank in regards to threat using 2hander Weapon as Paladin. (Despite the fact he didn't even use Judgement of Wisdom for more Mana,so he went oom because he did spam Consecration against single target which is poor threat and heavy mana consume).

He even didn't got Righteous Fury at the end to show mercy toward Warrior Tank even!

Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!
You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.

What buffs/debuffs i did restrict him to not use?!!!?!?

Re read what was written on the Screenshots you wrote :

2nd screenshot

Quoting myself "11:35 Killerduki: @skarm Just be in full Def Gear using threats Main Hand Weapon , use all consumes you can and self buffs"

I never said "DO NOT USE SELF DEBUFFS/BUFFFS , CONSUMES, "

@killerduki they are starting to make some headway in the conversation... QUICKLY distract everyone with a wall of spam and more videos to make the thread more convoluted and challenging to navigate! Do full quotes without pinpointing which parts of their posts you are responding to! Create a wave of text!!!! No a tsunami of text by spam quoting! Perhaps you could distract everyone by calling us noobs and pricks! Better yet, disregard the progress in the conversation and restate your previous points without acknowledging any criticisms that were previously made! The walls are closing in, you dont have much time left! Racism... Racists. YOURE ALL RACISTS!

Did we just put a salt shaker on the table? :twisted: That's so mean, but also quite entertaining so thank you :lol:

Skipping all your huge creative walls of text after this statement, Killerduki. I just want to address it first:
Why the hell am i going to spam Consecration which bad threat against Single Target?! ...

1) Consecration will use the same amount of mana no matter how many targets affected
2) Earlier you posted a video where you fight one single mob, "proving", that you can cast consecration on every cooldown without running oom.

Your question is ridiculous as it was not an issue in your own video, nor does it change the fact that using consecration on every cooldown will run you oom.

According to your claims that you can spam consecration on every cooldown without running oom. Why wouldn't you want to use it on a single target as well? It causes holy damage which we both know is where most of your threat is generated from, due to righteous fury. And even though, as you point out, it doesn't cause much single target threat, why wouldn't you still generate that threat, small as it is, if it doesn't run you oom?

Then you'd probably say that for the single target you would use SoR instead of SoW. Still, you have based your arguments on paladins not having mana issues on their access to SoW.
May I point out; paladin tanks mana issue does not only stem from the use of consecration. On a single target raid boss, you will still run out of mana eventually spamming SoR/JoR. That is unless, you prepare for the fight with runes, mana pots, and other consumables. In this case making you dependent on consumables or enablers (like druids wasting innervate on you).

1) Consecration will use the same amount of mana no matter how many targets affected

1 Tick of Consecration = 48 damage = 90 threat.
1 Block of Holy Shield = 130 damage = 302 threat = 3.9 Consecration ticks.

If i am going to choose between those 2 = Holy Shield forever.
2) Earlier you posted a video where you fight one single mob, "proving", that you can cast consecration on every cooldown without running oom.

Video was for AoE purpose where i do "SPAM CONSECRATION MAX RANKS" without "MANA ISSUES".
Your question is ridiculous as it was not an issue in your own video, nor does it change the fact that using consecration on every cooldown will run you oom.

Skarm Video was referring on killing trash where he said "Spamming Consecration Max ranks is bad and cause you oom" , only because he was doing terrible rotation and abilities killing the same trash , doesn't mean he was right.

In fact he was wrong , in those Trash you ALWAYS do use Max Ranks Consecration (exception is if you crowd control) and do Seal/Judge Wisdom , not casting any other spells and NEVER have any Mana Issues.
According to your claims that you can spam (you forgot to say max rank) consecration on every cooldown without running oom.

And that's what i proven so far in the Video.
Why wouldn't you want to use it on a single target as well?

Explained before = Poor Threat = Mana Inefficient for current behavior , doesn't mean i would never use, it is just spamming it is terrible idea to do against Single Target.
It causes holy damage which we both know is where most of your threat is generated from, due to righteous fury.

It's true that our most threat is generated by Holy Damage, but not everything works the way it is described , you need to look things at how they work , not at how they are written!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1viI_FZRo

Example is this , white swings does nearly 30-40% of the threat, but nowhere it is written that White Swings does good threats for Paladin! .
And even though, as you point out, it doesn't cause much single target threat, why wouldn't you still generate that threat, small as it is, if it doesn't run you oom?

Because we got Abilities and Spells who does produce much higher threat for much lower mana requirement compare to Consecration!
Then you'd probably say that for the single target you would use SoR instead of SoW. Still, you have based your arguments on paladins not having mana issues on their access to SoW.

Depend on the situation sometime , but 90% of the "Singer Target" i would use SoR for extra threat and JoW for extra Mana regen. I don't need SoW unless it is AoE fight for Max Rank Consecration, because SoW as you can see on previous Holyfrog Video = terrible single target threat.
May I point out; paladin tanks mana issue does not only stem from the use of consecration. On a single target raid boss, you will still run out of mana eventually spamming SoR/JoR.

Feel free to use JoW and then SoR/JoR on target and see how wrong your fallacy logic is,where if you never use Consecration , you will NEVER EVER OOM : https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&ei=uLIlXcGZNvGPmwWyl4ewDw&q=fallacy+logic&oq=fallacy+logic&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l5j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i22i30l3.3829.4987..5108...0.0..0.143.673.0j5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i10.BaDhJqXLQag

Both the argument and all its premises must be true for a statement to be true. The term logical fallacy is in a sense self-contradictory, because logic refers to valid reasoning, whereas a fallacy is the use of poor reasoning. Therefore, the term formal fallacy is preferred.
That is unless, you prepare for the fight with runes, mana pots, and other consumables. In this case making you dependent on consumables or enablers (like druids wasting innervate on you).

I usually use them in cases where i do need to do specific types of action or if i want to Boost whole Raid DPS by doing more threat for them to do more DPS.

Does that mean it makes me dependent on consumables ? No.

Evidence as Psojed said is this Video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk&t=2s

No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!

And you specifically requested he did not dualwield.

Requesting to not use some specific "Meme Spec" which is going to destroy main tank like Dual Wield thanks to Parry Haste and because i requested him to sit on the same level as me , doesn't mean i was restricting him from anything.

Good off-tanks stand behind the boss when not actively tanking for this very reason. Parry haste from the offtank dualwielding is not a factor.

It was request where he would do same as i did , otherwise i could have used Shields that scale with SP and torn him apart in regard to threats as Offtank , but instead the TESTS was requested to be in proper DEFENSIVE way!

There is exactly one shield in the entire game with spellpower. Draconian Aegis of the Legion with +20 SP.
That means a 2 damage increase on your SoR, 0.8 damage increase on Consecration, 10 damage increase on Judgement and 1 damage increase on Holy Shield.
Totally enough to "tear apart" a Warrior dualwielding for rage. /s

Here is SKARM himself testing 2Hand Weapon as threat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zctHC3ePLk

See how he torn apart the Warrior Tank in regards to threat using 2hander Weapon as Paladin. (Despite the fact he didn't even use Judgement of Wisdom for more Mana,so he went oom because he did spam Consecration against single target which is poor threat and heavy mana consume).

He even didn't got Righteous Fury at the end to show mercy toward Warrior Tank even!

Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!

Hakkar is pretty buggy on private servers though. I have tanked him as a Druid with MCP's where I was 20% ahead of the next guy on threat, and the boss still would not focus me. You can see this at 3 min 40 sec in the video where Skarm cast Blessing of Protection on himself and the boss keep hitting him.
Hakkar is simply put not a good example of threat for any tank class due to pserver shenanigans. Not to mention the obvious here, which is that Skarm is wearing the Tier 2.5 Avenger set and swinging an 85 DPS twohander from Naxxramas. That's two raid tiers above ZG.

As you can also see in this video, healers have similar level of gear which means Skarm can simply sit there with next to no defense on gear and rely on Reckoning procs. Which is something that's just not realistic as a Paladin if you are doing current content.
It's like playing a gimped version of DW Furyprot without the Defensive stance and additional armor/health.

Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!

Not true. Shield Slam scale with 1 damage per block value, which means every block value is something like 1.49 threat. It's not even close to the benefit of putting on a secondary weapon for rage for additional white damage, as well as getting Flurry procs for 30% attack speed, which gives you crazy high use of Heroic Strike. It far outweights the threat benefit from using Shield Slam.

Using Glyph of Deflection will provide you with 235 Block Value for 20 seconds. That's potentially 4 shield slams, each doing 350 additional threat from activating the trinket. Because the trinket has a 2 min cooldown, the trinket adds a total amount of 11.66 Threat per second. A drop in the bucket compared to simply putting on a off-hand to deal more whitedamage and cause more Heroic Strike.

I will admit the trinket does give you nice on demand burst threat. But this is not really necessary unless you are talking about picking up a boss after an aggro-reset, or during a pull. It does not really matter for sustained threat such as in a scenario where an off-tank is trying to keep up with the Maintank on threat.

Does that mean it makes me dependent on consumables ? No.

Evidence as Psojed said is this Video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Y9vd5mPk

No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!

I have already demonstrated that in an actual raid your DPS would be doing up towards 70-80% more damage. The only reason you were able to succesfully tank this boss without using consumables like Major Mana Potion and Demonic Rune is because of this fact.
Your total TPS in the video is 361.9 (59.000 / 163 seconds). Considering you have a Thunderfury, this is absolutely terrible. Using the previous video posted in this thread of the warrior in preraid bis DPS'ing Patchwerk, and accounting for the fact that there was no execute phase in that video, a full blue preraid geared Warrior with Blessing of Salvation would be doing 400+ TPS which means you would have lost threat.
This number would also just keep climbing as the length of the bossfight decrease due to higher Deathwish and trinket uptime.

If you are going to refuse to address any criticisms regarding that video then please stop posting it.

Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.

As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.

Depend on the situation sometime , but 90% of the "Singer Target" i would use SoR for extra threat and JoW for extra Mana regen. I don't need SoW unless it is AoE fight for Max Rank Consecration, because SoW as you can see on previous Holyfrog Video = terrible single target threat.

You do realize I intentionally did not use a Seal so that I would simulate the behaviour of SoR in Classic right? The point of my longevity video was not to demonstrate threat it any way. It was simply a means to demonstrate how long your mana would last with a high threat rotation.

Because SoR on private servers proc Judgement of WIsdom, I could not use this seal for the test. However the mana cost is the same, so by recasting Wisdom right before Judgement it meant I would be spending the same amount of mana as I would if I were swinging SoR in Classic on every auto. By not having a seal active while autoattacking, I would also be regaining the same amount of mana as a Paladin would in Classic.

That was the purpose of the test. The video has nothing at all to do with the actual threat output you produce, as that would require very different conditions.

Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.

As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.

Yes, that's why I declare this a dead end. So I'm just gonna say the same thing as Stfuppercut. Can't wait to see this fella run his own guild and main tank trough content as paladin. The whole thing is going to be a huge parody, so at least it will bring us all something to laugh about.

Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.

As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.

Yes, that's why I declare this a dead end. So I'm just gonna say the same thing as Stfuppercut. Can't wait to see this fella run his own guild and main tank trough content as paladin. The whole thing is going to be a huge parody, so at least it will bring us all something to laugh about.

At a certain point this becomes a waste of effort, which is how most of his conversations seem to go. He continues to type until everyone else just quits and then he counts that as a win. None of what he is saying moves the conversation forward... I understand being passionate and I understand giving information, but hes linked the same videos a dozen times and repeated the same awful points dozens of times. He's just stuck in a mental loop at this point.