Hey all,
Not sure if this might be of use to the few up-and-coming Holy Paladins out there, but I have complied a index of viable H-Pala items from around lvl 30 (Scarlet Monastery) and beyond. The intent is to give an easy overview on progressive item upgrades in the pre-raid and endgame stages of WoW Classic.
The spreadsheet features three Stat Weight settings, Pre-Raid, Standard and Custom, and additionally supports a viability view depending on the phase of inclusion of the specific items. Screen cap of the system can be seen below.
Stat Weight selection system, and item viability setting based on current game phase
The spreadsheet contains all viable item information for Holy Paladins, including item sources, types, key stats, phase of inclusion and a database link (not visible), as seen below
Example screen cap at 60% size to illustrate how long H-Palas might need to look like a turquoise lollipop
As data entry has been made manually, there might be minor mistakes, and naturally I happily take feedback, requests and revisions, Feedback can be dropped into the final tab and I will update in batches as appropriate.
If you want to check it out, then you can find it here:
Thank you so much ! this is quite impressive !
Happy to hear its of use Zutch!
I wonder if there's any numbers to compare healer performance in raids, you know, resto shamans, holy/disc priests, resto druids, hpalla !
would be nice to see some numbers on how they perform ! i know this isn't what your guide is about, but i imagine you know better sources for class information !
This appears to be of very fine quality. Thank you so much for composing it!
I actually cant recall seeing any patchwerk style comparisons, tho that would be quite neat to have around. But i do think the general consensus is that the order is something along the lines of Holy Priest > Restro Shaman & Holy Paladin > Restro Druid > Disc Priest if you go by healing output, but disregarding the ever important toolsets of each class is maybe not the best.
I think once we go live, we will have access to much better data (incl. stat weights etc), so fingers crossed that someone compiles a nice little overview of this!
Thanks a bunch TJourney, if you spot any mistakes or concerns, then please let me know!
I actually cant recall seeing any patchwerk style comparisons, tho that would be quite neat to have around. But i do think the general consensus is that the order is something along the lines of Holy Priest > Restro Shaman & Holy Paladin > Restro Druid > Disc Priest if you go by healing output, but disregarding the ever important toolsets of each class is maybe not the best.
I think once we go live, we will have access to much better data (incl. stat weights etc), so fingers crossed that someone compiles a nice little overview of this!
i found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipBhqd5KzTM
and i kept watching the heal meter, and this guy (plus 2 other pallas) were topping the heal meters ! versus 2-3 priests !!!
granted i didn't skim through the 2h footage (am abit sleepy) but i'll definitely find more videos to look into it
am also quite surprised, the palla is just spamming flash heal, while the other priests( you can see them in the video) pause for few seconds before casting again ! so i like the palla's sustain/efficiency !
Ah sorry I didnt see the reply!
Well its a bit hard to base it on a MC run since there is so many factors that we cant account for such as overhealing, gear, raid roles, afks and individual skill levels. Normally, for stuff like this, we would look at a patchwerk style encounter (preferably a simulation, to account for skill level, lag etc) to do a solid comparison but we dont really have access to that for classic yet (as far as i know?).
Your key take away is however very solid, cause one of the really great things about Holy Palas is that we can sustain like crazy, as soon as we hit a decent gear level. The kicker here is naturally Illumination so you really want to stack crit until you can sustain for an extended period of time!
Sheet has now been updated to encompass buffs, consumables and a range of Paladin milestones (skills, professionalises, class quests and attunements) e.g. a bunch of nice to have, not need to have.
With a stress-test in 5 days, name-reservations in 10 days and launch in 24 days, then I hope its okay to undrown the vault, in case boding Holy Paladins find themselves in need of item information.
Just going to resurrect this, instead of starting a whole new topic for it - but for the few dedicated Holy Paladins, mentally preparing for BGs and group-oriented PVP, then I have just updated the Vault of the Silverhands to better support PVP builds.
At its core, the update has newly adjusted Phase inclusion values for WSG/AV rep items, and now supports Stat Weight Values for Armour - I have a pre-configured stat weight set based on my best estimates, but I encourage any users to use the Custom input fields, and their own Stat Weights so it suits their playstyle and requirements!
This is absolutely phenomenal by the way.
This is absolutely phenomenal by the way.
Seconded, Xcellers puts out very high calibre stuff.
Seconded, Xcellers puts out very high calibre stuff.
Yeah seriously. I've spent a lot of time digging through this spreadsheet and compiling my toon's wishlist, and doing some EPGP calculations to determine how I can prioritize my most desired upgrades. :lol:
This is absolutely phenomenal by the way.
This is absolutely phenomenal by the way.
Seconded, Xcellers puts out very high calibre stuff.
Seconded, Xcellers puts out very high calibre stuff.
Yeah seriously. I've spent a lot of time digging through this spreadsheet and compiling my toon's wishlist, and doing some EPGP calculations to determine how I can prioritize my most desired upgrades. :lol:
Really appreciate the pats on the back guys, both sheets are significant time investments so it really means a lot that the effort is appreciated and well-received - especially after Chrome and Docs took as massive hit on stability and made any work on these 10-fold harder :roll:
Just seen this now, this makes life easier for sure!
Thanks!
Just seen this now, this makes life easier for sure!
Thanks!
Happy to hear man!
Wow - your table is indeed an absolute masterpiece! Thumbs up for all the work and effort you put in here and thank xou so much!!
I have used the gear primer a lot throughout the last few weeks and as my Paladin's gear is continuously improving, I am just starting to feel a bit insecure about the Stat Weights. Could you mybe provide some further insight on how the stat weights (e.g. 1 addheal = 1 Int = 1/12 Crit = 1/2 MP5 for the "standard" weighting) were made up? Is this some kind of gut feeling based on experience, or were there any further calculations / theorycrafting made?
Honestly speaking, I am afraid of being mis-led by those stat weights, as (for example) according to the standard weights, the Robes from Strath UD are valued higher than the Robe of Volatile Power. Most BiS-guides (and also my own gut feeling comparing those items) come to another conclusion and I am wondering if crit rating or Int might be under-valued in those stat weights...
Anyways, please don't get me wrong: Your work is absolutely outstanding and it has been a great help for me and many others - I would just like to better understand to what extent the pre-set stat weights are reasonable / reliable / usable.
Wow - your table is indeed an absolute masterpiece! Thumbs up for all the work and effort you put in here and thank xou so much!!
I have used the gear primer a lot throughout the last few weeks and as my Paladin's gear is continuously improving, I am just starting to feel a bit insecure about the Stat Weights. Could you mybe provide some further insight on how the stat weights (e.g. 1 addheal = 1 Int = 1/12 Crit = 1/2 MP5 for the "standard" weighting) were made up? Is this some kind of gut feeling based on experience, or were there any further calculations / theorycrafting made?
Honestly speaking, I am afraid of being mis-led by those stat weights, as (for example) according to the standard weights, the Robes from Strath UD are valued higher than the Robe of Volatile Power. Most BiS-guides (and also my own gut feeling comparing those items) come to another conclusion and I am wondering if crit rating or Int might be under-valued in those stat weights...
Anyways, please don't get me wrong: Your work is absolutely outstanding and it has been a great help for me and many others - I would just like to better understand to what extent the pre-set stat weights are reasonable / reliable / usable.
Hey man,
Happy to hear that you like the sheet and that its been of use, I am always super happy to hear that people are enjoying my work, especially when its been time consuming stuff like this; I am also generally happy to help everyone that asks, and to answer questions, and yours is a popular one for sure, so lemme do my best to explain my fundamental approach to it!
Now, this project was started way back when I decided to play Holy Paladin for Classic, as the final Healer class that I needed to test out in a Vanilla setting, so its focus was actually on the "progressive gearing" in pre-raid settings, so sadly I never really considered it necessary to save all my references, as I would in an academic paper but I kinda wish i had done so, as it, much like my guild sheet project.. blew up and now has crazy many users.
Origins
Regarding the stat weights, then they are quite simply the best available desk researched data that I could gather, in the pre-launch phase of Classic. They originate from 2005-2006 era forums discussing Paladin mechanics, and exist with some minor variations, but were actually readily available (unlike for many other classes). Now, there is no such thing as a perfect stat weight, nor a perfect BiS list (which is also why I do not provide a BiS list), as these things are situational and gear dependent.
Current Tier
For MC, then these values are straight-up not excellent, we are playing the game with endgame talents, itemization and raid adjustments, so fights are much shorter and much less demanding than what they should have been; does this matter in regard to how we gear up using the standard values? - just a little; our current tier goal for gearing, is not to gear for our current tier, but rather to get ready for BWL, which should be better tuned/balanced. The standard values are, if you ask me, more appropriate as you progress into the later stages of Classic.
This is also the reason why I provide multiple options, including the ever-important custom option; if your gut feeling tells you that the reference stat weights are wrong, then you type in the ones that you think is correct, and go at it - absolutely respect that, and I had hoped from day 1 that we would have a SimCraft version ready for us soon after launch (sadly neither healing nor Holy Paladins are supported as of yet).
Crit value/evaluation
Regarding Crit, then I naturally do think that I have a bit of insight into it - without being a mathematician or anything. What I often get concerns about, is an apparent over-value put on Crit, as we have pretty good reference tools to work with here; less to understand stat weights themselves, but to better understand the value and impact of stats.
Example Test.
If we want to gain a bit of knowledge about the output value of crit, then we can gain a bit of insight using the legacy sim for FoL, I will use myself as an example because its nice and easy.
Without a chest - i am standing at:
Int: 189
+Heal: 557
Mp5: 18.5 MP5
Crit: 11.66%
w. no buffs at all.
I wish to compare the value of your two optional robes.
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13346/robes-of-the-exalted
&
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19145/robe-of-volatile-power
- for this I will use: https://tegas.github.io/legacy-sim/#/flash-of-light and here, we only care about two stats: +healing and +crit as we want healing output (HPS)
First of all, we need to convert our item int to raw crit, as we cant leave out viable stats (STAM/SPI are regarded as useless in this context). To this end, we use a base-stat calculator such as this: https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?t=885
Exalted:
+0.17% crit from raw int
=
11.83% crit
Volatile:
+2% crit
+0.51% crit from raw int
=
14.17% crti
Dropping these into the Legacy Sim, and we get two HPS values for max ranked (non-amped) FoL
Exalted: 561.76 HPS
Volatile: 554.19 HPS
To me, this would indicate that the ranking between the two items is reasonable, and if i add the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=15047/red-dragonscale-breastplate to the mix, as a reference point, then it clocks in at 560.70 HPS, which also fits in to the vault rankings.
Digging deeper
Now, this was more as a point of reference and as a trust indicator. But there are further tools we can use to explore crit value comparisons for Holy Paladins, namely this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V5D0aZzBJ2bWSHvV5D_xAqXaA_LF2pFgYBVN_RNszYg/edit#gid=0
This actually provides you with some really good value comparisons for various stats, and importantly provides you with +healing equivalents. Using my example stats, then we can actually see that crit is only at around +10 healing for me, as I use HEP or Heal Equivalent Points as my frame of reference, then we kinda get an indication that at 12 HEP, I am putting an overvalue on crit when considering my gear-level. This can be explained by the fact that this tool is very specific and thus much better than mine, and that mine serves another function and has to cover a lot more ground (e.g. from MC to Naxx gearing)
As for answering your worries, then I am not sure if I am really able to - but I hope that this gives a better understanding of my approach to stat weights and to subsequently making sure that they are relatively appropriate and I do try to make sure that the system is entirely transparent and that users are able to customize it to suit their approaches to Holy Paladins.