What you will experience is an extremely watered down version of PvP with a safe space
It's things like this that make me think your interpretation of layering is pretty bleak. You say that my reaction is 'a bit much' but what you are claiming is Classic (in this case PvP) may end up being a completely watered down version of Vanilla. I don't want a watered down version of Vanilla, do you? Does the community?
Yes. Vanilla had approximately 3500-4500 players on full realms with no layering. No way to escape being camped or abused. Forced interaction. Sometimes that interaction was negative. Lets call this adversity. Adversity that lead to communication and teamwork to turn the tables. Interaction that wont be necessary when you can take the path of least resistance by layer jumping. Private servers had upwards of 12k players on one server! It was a bloodbath... To think that this will be watered down into layers of 3000 players and that I will be able to avoid negative interactions is disappointing. That isn't being bleak, that's being realistic. Layering will offer a less competitive environment. World PvP matters when wins and losses dictate your control of a valuable resource or area. When you can simply avoid that competition, world PvP is not as meaningful for me.
Your gloom and doom assessment of layering does not suggest that Classic will be a good representation of Vanilla, and that is why I have been trying to find the positives in the decisions to utilise layering. I was being optimistic, I was trying to find solutions to the problems created by layering, but ultimately it appears as if what they have created will not help replicate the vanilla experience. No one expected it to be 100% vanilla, I was 16 for god's sake, I have a wife and children now. But I did hope it would be exploitation/abuse free and close to the same game I enjoyed. It appears layering certainly wont help in recreating a chance to relive some of the same experiences. I have reluctantly taken your advice onboard, and I will move forward with the facts you've stated to find a way to enjoy Classic that wasn't quite as optimistic as I had hoped. This isn't a recreation of vanilla, but rather vanilla relaunched in the image of retail WoW with their own variants on sharding that destroyed the game previously.
Mmm... This is a bit dramatic, but I guess I agree with the core of what you are saying. Bear in mind layering is temporary... I feel like I started this conversation trying to highlight all of the negative impacts layering could have and now I'm trying to talk you off an edge... You're going to have fun in Classic! Layering is temporary. Its a viable solution to an issue that needed to be addressed. It wasn't my preferred solution, but there seems to be a pretty big divide within this very forum, so take my opinion for what its worth.
In every Thread the War of Layering!
I mean... Its sort of related to the topic?!?! I tried to keep this one within the context of OP's question. It got sloppy though. hahaha
Vanilla had approximately 3500-4500 players on full realms with no layering
Private servers had upwards of 12k players on one server! It was a bloodbath... To think that this will be watered down into layers of 3000 players and that I will be able to avoid negative interactions is disappointing.
Wait, are you looking for a pserver outcome, or a vanilla WoW outcome? This one confuses me - granted you have shown your desire for dynamic respawns (a key element of pservers) so I'm not entirely surprised. You literally just said "vanilla was 3.5k-4.5k" "pservers were 12k" "God imagine if there is only layers of 3k!" Does that seem odd to you? 3k layer is much closer to vanilla than 12k with dynamic respawns, isn't it?
You're going to have fun in Classic! Layering is temporary.
This has kind of been my point from the beginning, yourself and others take a lot of time to point out how doom and gloom layering is, regardless of it being temporary - it's hard to not have that hit home eventually. You are right that there has been nothing official from Blizzard on implementing restrictions/safeguards on layering to prevent abuse (and this concerns me most of all). My optimistic side still hopes that Blizzard use the stress test and beta to find ways to prevent exploitation of layering before launch. But based on my experience with Blizzard and expansions/launches, I tend to agree with you that they will ignore feedback from people like us and launch a shit-show of exploits/bugs/shit we don't want.
Ultimately I think you're on the money Stfuppercut, I think layering will have a negative impact on the game, but I just hope that it is minimised at much as possible so that we can all enjoy trying to recreate that vanilla experience. Don't get me wrong, I am still excited to play the game, I just really hope that it doesn't turn out to be quite so negatively impacted that yourself and others have predicted, that would kind of just be a kick in the guts after all of these years waiting.
War... war never changes. Good discussion being had here though - we haven’t had as long to digest layering perspectives as we did for sharding.
War... war never changes. Good discussion being had here though - we haven’t had as long to digest layering perspectives as we did for sharding.
Good point, I think we are all a little jaded from that experience. And people still feel that today. I remember seeing sharding in the classic demo at Blizzcon, it was horrific. People in Elwynn Forest get invited to a group, everyone around them disappears, mobs surround them and they are suddenly having to fight for their life.
I hope they find a way for layering to work better than sharding, I don't like sharding. I don't mind dynamic respawns, but I also don't think it is representative of vanilla WoW.
P.s. Ret sucks and I'll take you down as a feral druid
I am Up for a Duel ;)
I am Up for a Duel ;)
Holy shit you called my bluff, you know Druid vs Paladin is like the immovable object meets.... the immovable object! That duel could go for years.
Holy shit you called my bluff, you know Druid vs Paladin is like the immovable object meets.... the immovable object! That duel could go for years.
I have the first 4 Weeks off work on Release so i have enough time ;)
Wait, are you looking for a pserver outcome, or a vanilla WoW outcome? This one confuses me - granted you have shown your desire for dynamic respawns (a key element of pservers) so I'm not entirely surprised. You literally just said "vanilla was 3.5k-4.5k" "pservers were 12k" "God imagine if there is only layers of 3k!" Does that seem odd to you? 3k layer is much closer to vanilla than 12k with dynamic respawns, isn't it?
Again. Vanilla was vanilla. Private was private. And Classic will be Classic. They are all separate. That being said, Classic is shaping up to be the least competitive version of world PvP that we have seen. Private is relevant because private servers sparked the development of Classic and private servers hosted a massive playerbase, so they offer a great talking point for dynamic respawns. If you had read my previous posts, my actual desired outcome was temporary sharding confined to start zones (as Blizzard originally planned). I have seen dynamic respawns and I personally believe that sharding within start zones would have the smallest impact on Classic. Having played on private, it was a bloodbath. I dont use that term lightly, and while I will cherish those memories fondly, I am prepared to move onto Classic.
This has kind of been my point from the beginning, yourself and others take a lot of time to point out how doom and gloom layering is, regardless of it being temporary - it's hard to not have that hit home eventually. You are right that there has been nothing official from Blizzard on implementing restrictions/safeguards on layering to prevent abuse (and this concerns me most of all). My optimistic side still hopes that Blizzard use the stress test and beta to find ways to prevent exploitation of layering before launch. But based on my experience with Blizzard and expansions/launches, I tend to agree with you that they will ignore feedback from people like us and launch a shit-show of exploits/bugs/shit we don't want.
No Selexin, I have been outlining the negatives that will likely present themselves with layering. You are speaking in terms of absolutes... Actual doom and gloom scenarios... "I tend to agree with you that they will ignore feedback from people like us and launch a shit-show of exploits/bugs/shit we don't want." This is not my line of thinking, its yours.
For example...
I am happy to concede that layer hopping will be instant, easy, abusable and rampantly destroying the vanilla feel (which is a shame).
That is a very bleak outlook and is not one that I support. I can be critical of a specific aspect of the launch without losing faith in the entire project. I am concerned about what implications layering will have and I think that it was a poor option, but I dont think that layering will ruin vanilla forever. The launch wont be my cup of tea and then we will move onto phase 2.
Ultimately I think you're on the money @Stfuppercut, I think layering will have a negative impact on the game, but I just hope that it is minimised at much as possible so that we can all enjoy trying to recreate that vanilla experience. Don't get me wrong, I am still excited to play the game, I just really hope that it doesn't turn out to be quite so negatively impacted that yourself and others have predicted, that would kind of just be a kick in the guts after all of these years waiting.
I am less interested with recreating the vanilla experience, and more interested in experiencing Classic for what it will be. I think that if you go into Classic with minimized expectations you will have a good time.
I have the first 4 Weeks off work on Release so i have enough time ;)
I can't believe you pulled that off, you lucky bastard hahaha. I'm very jealous :smile:
I can't believe you pulled that off, you lucky bastard hahaha. I'm very jealous
*pssssssttt* Best thing is my GF is the first week away because of her job, so 20/7 gaming xD
I think that if you go into Classic with minimized expectations you will have a good time.
Ugh, you suck Stfuppercut, I hate this sentiment. Can't I just want a true recreation of Vanilla - damnit!
Anyway, I'm over the layering discussion well and truly, I'm 5 drinks into my night and I just want to talk shit about druid builds, beta stuff, hybrid builds etc. How about we reassess the effects of layering when either Blizz come out with some solid details on combatting the abuse of layering, or once the game has launched and we are knee deep in layering?
I think that if you go into Classic with minimized expectations you will have a good time.
Ugh, you suck @Stfuppercut, I hate this sentiment. Can't I just want a true recreation of Vanilla - damnit!
Anyway, I'm over the layering discussion well and truly, I'm 5 drinks into my night and I just want to talk shit about druid builds, beta stuff, hybrid builds etc. How about we reassess the effects of layering when either Blizz come out with some solid details on combatting the abuse of layering, or once the game has launched and we are knee deep in layering?
Deal. Though, I don't think I will be around here often when Classic comes out... I will be... very... very... preoccupied. I actually applaud @teebling for having beta access and still being such an active part of the forum.
Deal. Though, I don't think I will be around here often when Classic comes out... I will be... very... very... preoccupied. I actually applaud @teebling for having beta access and still being such an active part of the forum.
C'mon dude, you gotta stick around. I have set it on my 'Daily' bookmarks folder to open when I get to work, or when I get home, which prompts me to read/respond.
C'mon dude, you gotta stick around. I have set it on my 'Daily' bookmarks folder to open when I get to work, or when I get home, which prompts me to read/respond.
In other words Selexin loves you Stfuppercut
C'mon dude, you gotta stick around. I have set it on my 'Daily' bookmarks folder to open when I get to work, or when I get home, which prompts me to read/respond.
In other words @Selexin loves you @Stfuppercut
He's the Ying to my Yang :wink:
He's the Ying to my Yang
What if he wants to be the Yang in your.....ahm to your Ying? ;)
He's the Ying to my Yang
What if he wants to be the Yang in your.....ahm to your Ying? ;)
We maaaaay be off-topic now.... sorry teebling!
We maaaaay be off-topic now.... sorry @teebling!teebling
Year sorry but we sadly have not enough Streamers that test stuff like things the op mentioned.
I really do not want to engage in the Layering War but this looks just as bad as some feared:
https://clips.twitch.tv/PatientGloriousMomTBTacoRight