If you have no aspirations of interacting with others and will spend the bulk of your time questing and leveling, be whatever you want, it won't matter to anyone anyways.
My first Diablo 2 character was a paladin, my first WoW character was a paladin (horde in tbc), the first class i started playing in Hearthstone was a Paladin. Definitely going to main Paladin again in vanilla. Also never really thought about it but ive been playing blizzard games my entire life! i was pretty blown that they renamed paladin to Crusader in diablo 3.
Originally i was going to go dwarf for the racials but after playing around with charater creations i decided i really dont like the dwarf models and im probably gonna role human female
My first Diablo 2 character was a paladin, my first WoW character was a paladin (horde in tbc), the first class i started playing in Hearthstone was a Paladin. Definitely going to main Paladin again in vanilla. Also never really thought about it but ive been playing blizzard games my entire life! i was pretty blown that they renamed paladin to Crusader in diablo 3.
Originally i was going to go dwarf for the racials but after playing around with charater creations i decided i really dont like the dwarf models and im probably gonna role human female
Yet your profile indicates you will be a rogue... Is this some sort of rogue trick? A distraction perhaps?
I get the whole "play what you want" thing but ret paladins are cringe and no one wants to raid with a guy playing an intentionally subpar spec, it's rude to the rest of the raid and is essentially broadcasting "I'm going to fuck around while you guys play serious, please carry me for months until I get fed enough gear to be useful".
Ret paladins are not good unless severely geared (requires much much much more gear than other classes to be decent), it's wrong to give good gear that could go to a warrior to a ret paladin. Thankfully most people have wised up and ret paladins will only be played in bad guilds or guilds where they circlejerk with a guild master, no good guilds will allow them because paladins are one of the best healing classes in the game and it's a waste to have them play ret when other classes can do their job much better with a lot less gear. It also makes your guild look bad if people know you take ret paladins to raid.
I get the whole "play what you want" thing but ret paladins are cringe and no one wants to raid with a guy playing an intentionally subpar spec, it's rude to the rest of the raid and is essentially broadcasting "I'm going to fuck around while you guys play serious, please carry me for months until I get fed enough gear to be useful".
Ret paladins are not good unless severely geared (requires much much much more gear than other classes to be decent), it's wrong to give good gear that could go to a warrior to a ret paladin. Thankfully most people have wised up and ret paladins will only be played in bad guilds or guilds where they circlejerk with a guild master, no good guilds will allow them because paladins are one of the best healing classes in the game and it's a waste to have them play ret when other classes can do their job much better with a lot less gear. It also makes your guild look bad if people know you take ret paladins to raid.
*Caperfin kicks in the door.
I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.
If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.
In regards to ret, check out Spelladin its LITERALLY revolutionary.
I get the whole "play what you want" thing but ret paladins are cringe and no one wants to raid with a guy playing an intentionally subpar spec, it's rude to the rest of the raid and is essentially broadcasting "I'm going to fuck around while you guys play serious, please carry me for months until I get fed enough gear to be useful".
Ret paladins are not good unless severely geared (requires much much much more gear than other classes to be decent), it's wrong to give good gear that could go to a warrior to a ret paladin. Thankfully most people have wised up and ret paladins will only be played in bad guilds or guilds where they circlejerk with a guild master, no good guilds will allow them because paladins are one of the best healing classes in the game and it's a waste to have them play ret when other classes can do their job much better with a lot less gear. It also makes your guild look bad if people know you take ret paladins to raid.
*Caperfin kicks in the door.
I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.
If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.
In regards to ret, check out Spelladin its LITERALLY revolutionary.
That's very nice that the dozens of other people in a hardcore guild all agree they have extra time to burn trying out sub-optimal specs in their raids because they have all rolled fresh so many times that they need new excitement.
For everyone else, we have better things to do than babysit ret pallies with raid dreams. The raids are already exciting during progress, and I want to go outside the raid and spend time picking herbs, mining ore, hitting that guy trying to take my nodes, hit up Warsong Gulch, spend time IRL with family and friends, cook, have hobbies besides WoW, etc. when they're on farm. Ideally, do all that even when they're on progress too.
The rest of my raid might even want to also. Don't get me wrong, I'm still getting world buffs, consumes, pre-raid BiS, showing up to the raid on time, and doing my best to top the meters, but I expect everyone else to be too so that they don't waste my time. A Ret Pally's best is being hybrid spec and putting on a dress to heal while they wait to get their PvP gear, not pretending that they rolled something they're not.
Advertising to the semi-casuals who frequent this forum that they can be whatever they want is misleading. Approval to play these specs would normally be happening on a guild forum for a player who has already proven themselves.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
I think there's a bit difference between having unique and varied specs and having unique and varied roles.
I was Moonkin specced in vanilla with the 31st talent and everything and I was brought to raids to heal and decurse. I never even saw Chromaggus alive because I was so well hidden back there decursing. This may seem like a really funny joke but I actually didn't. Many ferals used their 20% more int talent to good benefit and put on their heal gear for raids back then too.
I am all for hybrid specs and unique specs, but there is some reality that many of the roles are going to be the same regardless, at least in raids. But then, I always felt that the main draw of the hybrids was PvP where you could truly use most of your abilities.
I am actually starting to hate the word 'min-max'.
Best refer to The Virgin Min-Maxer vs The Chad Immersion, lol.
As someone who played a lot in classic but focused more on PvP than PvE, I'm excited to try raiding this time, but nervous at the same time. I've never been able to wrap my head all the gear, specs, and numerous tidbits of info every raider seems to have to know/already knows.
I'm going frost mage for farming, is that considered suboptimal for raids?
As someone who played a lot in classic but focused more on PvP than PvE, I'm excited to try raiding this time, but nervous at the same time. I've never been able to wrap my head all the gear, specs, and numerous tidbits of info every raider seems to have to know/already knows.
I'm going frost mage for farming, is that considered suboptimal for raids?
Not at all. All the way up to AQ frost is the best. There are certain frost specs considered the best, but I am not certain of what the numbers look like if you don't go all the way matching them. Just a guess and I could be wrong, but I wouldn't think that you'd be too far down the meters if you have a spec that's close and likely your fellow mages want to PvP too if you're on a PvP server.
It is a mystery to me if guilds want everyone to go fire for AQ when Frost is still a perfectly fine DPS spec even if a bit lower at that point.
I know there's tons of BiS guides, but are there any guides for gear to get while working towards the BiS gear? Or do people just usually check out https://classicdb.ch/ or something?
I know there's tons of BiS guides, but are there any guides for gear to get while working towards the BiS gear? Or do people just usually check out https://classicdb.ch/ or something?
I think typically while doing dungeons and group quests leading up to chasing your BiS gear you will generally deck yourself out in decent enough gear. I don't think many people release pre-pre-raid BiS. Lvl 50-55 dungeons is where you get the bulk of the gear required to run the level 58-60 dungeons that have the BiS gear.
that's good to know. Is pvp gear considered decent for any of the early raids?
snickerwicket if I'm not mistaken, for some classes PvP gear is partly BiS or very close to it. Especially the Epic PvP set.
I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.
I have not experienced this. I have experienced and extreme lack of tolerance on private. The min max culture is SUPER blatant from top to bottom. This has been my experience, this is often the experience that others relay and this is the experience that all the prominent streamers have seen as well. The reality is that for most private players, they have done the content to death... Their threshold for dealing with things that are suboptimal, wiping or facing ANY adversity, is INCREDIBLY low. What is more? The min/max culture that pushes for speedclears to "spice things up" are the LAST people who are interested in bringing classes that will slow down their times. Go look at raid parses. Very few guilds are running many rets. The odd guild has one, but it is not common and they arent bring many. I have played with many good players who min/max, I have never heard any of them advocate bringing garbage specs to raids to artificially inflate the challenge of a game that will be older than some of the players who play it. To be honest, the best players I know are always PvP oriented players who just burn through PvE content as a means to collect the gear they need for PvP. Most of these guys are taking PvE specs that they DESPISE to collect the gear they need so that they can play the game the way that they would prefer to at a later time. Try selling these guys on your suboptimal spec while they suffer through playing something min/maxed for months so that they can help a guild to collect gear to FINALLY play in PvP!
If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.
The difference between a meme spec and a solid spec is often the difference between a raid invite and being benched in a hardcore guild.
What is the threshold for bringing a meme spec? Everyone min/maxes, you win. Everyone memes, you lose. You cant take 40 memes and down content. So how many do you take? Who gets to go meme? Who gets to take a PvP oriented build? You start making exceptions that are not in favor of progression and you slowly accumulate people who are less progression focused and you discourage your players who are progression focused. This slowly pushes away your best players or reduces their motivation to min/max. I was actually in this EXACT circumstance in a guild within the past few months. The guild sold itself as a hardcore experience. Then we show up for MC 5 of the leaders are memes, 1 is a shadow priest, 1 is a feral (im pro feral by the way), 1 is a melee hunter (without nightfall), 2 are ret... The guild began to disintegrate. Was the content too challenging? NO! Of course not... But that wasn't the issue. The issue was that the rest of us were carrying dead weight and then sharing the spoils of our effort. How can you lead a guild and set standards while opting to reduce your own throughput? This ALWAYS causes a massive conflict. This was only with 5 memes!
Remove all of the aesthetics from the game and it leaves you with a board full of numbers. Your raid is a number VS the boss number. If your throughput and value overwhelms that of the scripted encounter, you win. The encounter does not change. It is predictable and you can overcome the number with proper preparation. Part of preparing is choosing the spec that will increase your teams odds of winning. Choosing to lower your guilds number for self-interested reasons, will never fly with your entire guild. The reality here is that it is far easier to set expectations high and make few exceptions. This is the fairest way to run a guild that will down content without discouraging your top players. If you want to go meme, you better have a well constructed case for how you intend to provide value to the team, because a raid is a team after all. Perhaps this is a simple concept for me because I grew up playing a lot of sports so I find myself more team oriented? I just find a lot of people who opt to play these specs do it for selfish reasons, whether that is subconscious or not, I am not sure.
Dont get me wrong, there is a place for EVERYONE. But dont get this twisted, if you are a meme or a suboptimal class, you will likely find yourself in a casual guild doing casual things. Lets not paint a pretend picture here. This will be the best place for you because you are casual. I dont mean this in a derogatory way, these are two entirely different crowds of people. My issue is not with meme builds... I hate when players who play meme builds start spreading false propaganda. I think this is disingenuous to new players and sets up a lot of false expectations. This is super harmful for the community both on the forum and come Classic.
Advertising to the semi-casuals who frequent this forum that they can be whatever they want is misleading. Approval to play these specs would normally be happening on a guild forum for a player who has already proven themselves.
This is just too true. For you new guys, please hear both sides of the argument but understand that playing as a suboptimal spec will be an uphill battle. If you are up for the challenge, you are likely the right person for the job. If you read our posts and find yourself discouraged, this is the most gentle form of persuasion you will EVER receive in opposition to your spec... When you dip your toes into a game full of players with their own goals and aspirations and then begin stifling their progress, you will be met with far more volatile reactions.
Imagine being the meme who is doing AWFUL DPS in a guild that just wiped for the third week on a boss... The wipe happens. The damage gets posted and instead of taking accountability for your own short comings you say "If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues. " How do you think your team will respond? Perhaps there are bigger issues, but your issue is the easiest to fix. Your issue is the easiest to identify. Your number is low. You are a weak link. Unfortunately, you will find yourself replaced and rightfully so. (Hardcore mindset). In contrast a casual guild would shrug their shoulders and meetup for a pint at Goldshire in celebration of the bosses they did down! Different communities, different mindsets. Have realistic goals and find a community that suits you.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
snickerwicket
Well I think you wont have any pvp gear in phase 1 anyways.
snickerwicket Well I think you wont have any pvp gear in phase 1 anyways.
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
No. This is hypocritical.
says: Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
also judges min/maxing by saying: If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
He hates min/maxing. He hates that min/maxers push their mindset on others but he is doing exactly that with his post. He then says that no one should judge eachother. His post made no sense. You don't get to play both sides of the fence. Either say your opposition to min maxing by judging that community and the impact they have on everyone else (which is massive). Or simply say that both communities should coexist and withhold your own judgement from the conversation and remain impartial.