There is enough of a tolerance or “grey area” between classes that allows for a diverse arrangement of viable raid comps.

Yeah but like I said, it's one thing to raid knowing that some people are better than others at playing their spec because they just haven't practiced enough and another to raid knowing that little Timmy is doing half the damage everyone else is doing just because he likes to pew-pew instead of pow-pow.

And if the Raid Leader permits that, then either everyone must agree with it or there must be some grand-scheme of things motive in mind, otherwise he's biased and it doesn't look well on paper.

It's easy. In the endgame the players filter pretty much automatically. Casual players will be in casual minded guilds/playing solo and more hardcore players will be in hardcore guilds because they would not like to be in casual guild. There will be many more options (semi casual, semi hardcore, so on :D) in classic so there is no point to be scared somebody woudnt find his/her spot in classic. :)

I agree Nymis. Fair points all well made. Now give that wrist a rest. :wink:

As s1atan said, people will naturally fall into their 'place' over time. Not to pigeon hole people, but you're just better off in an environment that fits your own play style. If I'm a casual, I'm not going to expect to be carried along in a serious raiding guild, just as I wouldn't expect them to be ok with doing so.

Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.

Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.

Yes, I definitely believe that everyone should independently decide for what character he wants to play. It's up to everybody how they spend their time.

Also after some consideration I decided to roll Tauren hunter, instead of orc/troll, even when its subpar combo. I just love their lore, appearance, way of life and kodos. :)

Trolls also have, in my opinion, the best racial animal for mounts: Raptors.

Yes, I definitely believe that everyone should independently decide for what character he wants to play. It's up to everybody how they spend their time.

Also after some consideration I decided to roll Tauren hunter, instead of orc/troll, even when its subpar combo. I just love their lore, appearance, way of life and kodos. :)

I will probably roll Orc shaman, although Troll might be slightly better. Even in top guilds you see non optimal race/class combos because it often has next to no impact. And, to be honest, who hasn't equipped a slightly worse armor piece once just because it looked better ;^)

I agree. I've never been a fan of extreme min-maxing (unless you're trying for some very difficult goal). Hope everyone just plays how they want to play and doesn't feel pressured otherwise.

And, to be honest, who hasn't equipped a slightly worse armor piece once just because it looked better ;^)

Oof, you got me!!

Trolls also have, in my opinion, the best racial animal for mounts: Raptors.

but what about Taurens ? they can be their own mount!;)
well, not anymore, I guess...

Trolls also have, in my opinion, the best racial animal for mounts: Raptors.

I love Trolls overall, Raptors are one of the best looking mounts as well.

Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.

This is why I am going to be in a “hardcore” guild. I would rather spend time farming consumables with my friends than wiping or going slowly in a raid. I really feel that the time gets spent anyway.

I might want to add to that:

..., Vanilla is not a race, it's a marathon.
And playing a class that is only going to get good and fun to play past T2 is not something I would advice anyone to do.

Technically, marathons are a form of race. I know you meant sprint lol :mrgreen:

My actual 2 cents on the topic: Anyone who did a steady amount of time vanilla doing PvP can tell you that a good player (someone who plays their class well) will overcome stereotypes and thrash folks who thought otherwise. People will see this firsthand this summer. Pick what you feel you want to play, immerse yourself in the class, and you will see that regardless of certain imbalances a good player of his/her class will beat an average player of a "superior" class.

Great thing about big world pvp is Min-maxing goes out the window it's; numbers, co-ordination, communication and instinct. Zerg ftw.

Except mages, fuck mages. Gnome mages inparticular.

Something that occurred to me today:

The difference between top and bottom classes/spec combos gets really big when one of you can get invited to raids and given the gear you need and one of you can't.

While 100g a week can solve the spec problem, being given gear for your "offspec" takes time and can be quite a long wait.

For instance, what if your guild gives big 2H weap prio to warriors and you realize too late that they'd rather give the newb that showed up last month the epic that just dropped instead of you who has been diligently healing for the last two or three months? Be very certain you know what your guild's policies are.

You might think DKP can solve this, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms with some classes lacking point competition and them hoarding excess points.

Oderlods in response to the OP I really think that a lot of people are going to get caught off guard pvp wise due to making assumptions about ‘strong’ and ‘weak’ classes.

There are so many underrated specs and builds that people who are ‘well informed’ will miss. There is a rift in top top PvE performance but this isn’t as amplified in PvP IMO.

Stormx’s enhance shammy for example...

What I always tell people is that leveling takes a long time. And if you're picking something that you want to own at 60 with but you're going to hate leveling with to the point that you might not even finish the push to 60, just play something else.

Ultimately, the best choice you can make for class in vanilla is to pick something you can actually level and not get tired of.

(Disclaimer: I'm super anti-people telling others how to play the game and mapping out every inch of the game, but here's my opinion on what was discussed earlier)

I'll disagree, though, in that the gap between the optimal specs and those that are not so optimal is negligible. While I think some people overexxagerate the shortcomings of balance druid, for example, that gap is pretty big and you also have to bear in mind not only the spec themselves but the gear available.

Prot paladins is arguably the worst spec in the game, but it's made worse by having zero gear for it. There's a blue set of scholomance gear that is plate and gives both defense and mana per 5, but it's still quite bad. Prot warriors outstrip the ability of bear druids not because bear druids are super bad, necessarily, but that there's a mountain of gear for prot warriors and the entire list of bear druid best in slot for the entirety of the game comes from raids that are BWL or lower. Their BiS weapon is a level 43 staff. Same with a cat druid. A rogue certainly starts off stronger than a cat druid, but then there's an absurd amount of rogue gear and a cat druid doesn't have that same luxury.

In the end, Vanilla is not about minmaxing.

Agreed. While I do thoroughly enjoy grinding out my pre-red BiS gear in vanilla, I think that is a testament to me thoroughly enjoying completing lists! I think enjoyed earning my tank gear pre-raid than I did while raiding, lol.

I agree for class, but people who insist on certain specs need to realize they're less efficient at their best than others and won't always get picked up as quickly. A guild that can clear all content is not the best guild on the server, so you have to anticipate that if you really want to meme spec. To be at the level where it really matters means playing a lot every day, so the people who are picking for spreadsheet dps will burn out. Every class is good and needed, you WILL get a raid spot if you try. Just do yourself a favor and going into classic identify with your class and not a subclass if you want to get as far as possible as fast as possible with your guild.

I agree for class, but people who insist on certain specs need to realize they're less efficient at their best than others and won't always get picked up as quickly. A guild that can clear all content is not the best guild on the server, so you have to anticipate that if you really want to meme spec. To be at the level where it really matters means playing a lot every day, so the people who are picking for spreadsheet dps will burn out. Every class is good and needed, you WILL get a raid spot if you try. Just do yourself a favor and going into classic identify with your class and not a subclass if you want to get as far as possible as fast as possible with your guild.

I agree with you. My post was directed more towards the people that want to get back to WoW and play casually/semi-hardcory. I think choosing the spec/class that you like is more important than anything, since if you don't you're always gonna have that thought in the back of your head of playing your fav class. Obviously for people who are gonna be pretty hardcore players they should do whatever they feel like and choose accordingly to their expectations.

For example, my friend who has never played WoW (except for trying out retail) wants to start playing Classic, he watches a few videos and tells me "man I wanna play a pala or a druid but they say they're pretty shit". And that's an absolute lie, I've seen all kind of specs work in PvP and even in PvE you can make them work. You may not get to the #1 guild of your server, but if that's never your objective, why should it matter?